Mike Hanson
Trying to understand...
And that's too fast the other direction (for my friend). Most people just want a glorified CD player, with as simple an interface as possible.
Eversolo DMP A8 - Is this the end for all other streamers?
- Thread starter Aspro
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Mike Hanson
Trying to understand...
Not if your DAC has galvanic isolation for the USB input. If it doesn't, there's a cheap device from Topping (HS01?) to solve that problem.
Unfortunately, its not a simple as that...If you're using USB, then you'll get perfect data transfer from whatever device that you're using to stream. However, if you're using some type of S/PDIF (coax, optical or AES/EBU), then there is a chance for issues like jitter, along with the vagaries of transmission and reception problems.
That's why I always use USB if I have a choice. You can't improve upon perfect data transmission.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
If you're using USB, then you'll get perfect data transfer from whatever device that you're using to stream. However, if you're using some type of S/PDIF (coax, optical or AES/EBU), then there is a chance for issues like jitter, along with the vagaries of transmission and reception problems.
That's why I always use USB if I have a choice. You can't improve upon perfect data transmission.
If only it was as simple as that. Perfect data transfer is not the only requirement for good sound quality. If it was then according to you then all streamers with a usb output would sound the same. Also there would have been no desire for the usb output board on my Antipodes Oladra to have been upgraded recently at the factory with significant improvements to its sound quality. Also the Innuos PhoenixUSB regenerator would not make the difference it does to sound quality.
One can indeed improve upon perfect data transmission and that is why it is so difficult to design and manufacture a really good sounding streamer.
Look at the Innuos Statement which only has usb output as does their Zenith and yet both sound quite different to each other possibly in part due to their different usb output boards. They also both sound quite different to the usb output in my Antipodes streamer.
I think you are doing a disservice to suggest that merely achieving perfect data transfer is the only objective. Also please be aware that perfect noise blocking galvanic isolation on usb is something of a mythical beast. If the signal can get through then often so can the noise. Optical ought by rights to achieve perfect noise blocking but it has many other issues and can end up generating noise in its conversion process hence why Innuos do not use optical on any of their streamers apart from the entry level Zen Mini.
Del monaco
Del Monaco
It is for the more geek minded but if you don’t mind a bit of learning and fidgeting, they are remarkable value for money. You can, of course, add an attractive screen. And sound wise, extremely competitive.
Allaboutmusic
pfm Member
That's interesting and a detailed evaluation. What is in theory the best transmission method? I have an admittedly cheap streaming setup i.e. raspberry pi4 with hifi Berry Pro hat on, which seemingly reduces noise from the pi and then produces an optical and coax output signal, i run tidal via volumio software and have some locally stored music on usb. I use the optical out into my rega dac r and it sounds pretty good, better I think, than the native pi USB before I added the hifi Berry hat. However, I haven't ever compared to a more competent streamer. My impression is that my setup is likely pretty good, given its a single purpose computer with no moving parts, however I think it would likely be bettered by a more competent streamer but not until you start spending a lot more money e.g. innous, Linn, Naim etc.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Indeed, and I suspect that part of their sound quality is the use of LMS and Squeezebox emulation which I have found to be just about the best sounding software even on much more expensive streamers (yes, the software really does matter even with bit perfect replay).
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
A simple question but no simple answer I’m afraid because it is one of those ‘it depends’ sort of situations. Part of what it depends on is the DAC being used. For instance with my Chord Mscaler and Dave dac I definitely prefer their BNC inputs (as do many others) and so I take the USB output from my Innuos Zenith through an Innuos PhoenixUSB reclocker/regenerator and then through an AudioWise SRC-DX usb to bnc convertor in order to connect to the bnc input on the Mscaler. When using my Antipodes Oladra I much prefer its BNC output (again, as do many others).
My best advice is to not accept anyones assurances that any one transmission method is ‘best’ and to experiment in your own system and pick the one you prefer. See also my post above regarding how even the different bit perfect playback softwares being used can affect the sound.
garyi
leave blank
But node, wimm etc all sound really good, so apparently it can be done and its not super difficult? At what point do you say 'we've arrived' what sort of money needs to be spent for the few golden ears in the world to say this is 'really good'?
It smells of more audiophile nonsense, sorry.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Indeed the BS Node etc do sound good but having had a Node2i I would qualify that as being good for what they cost. The sound is not perfect and can be bettered. When I had the Node 2i it sounded much better when the internal pwer supply was taken out and a new interface board used instead which allowed an external linear power supply to be connected. No golden ears are required to hear that difference and there are quite a few here on PFM that have done it to good effect.
Equally there are many on here that have gone on to compare the Node to say an Innuos and have been sufficiently convinced of the improvement to make the change. It is not just for a few ‘golden ears’. The improvements are real and worthwhile but obviously one can opt out at any point because no one is saying that something like the Node is bad, just that it can be improved upon.
garyi
leave blank
I agree but its important to temper these discussions occasionally or we land up daisy chaining £2k 'audiophile switches' because it sounds better.
I do agree there are places to go from the node, its not the end game. However the difference between it (or a pi or what ever) and 5-10-15k streamers is simply not that dramatic.
I do agree there are places to go from the node, its not the end game. However the difference between it (or a pi or what ever) and 5-10-15k streamers is simply not that dramatic.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Maybe you haven’t listened to the right alternatives? For me the difference between the 2i and an Innuos Zen was worthwhile as was the difference when I upgraded to the Zenith but we all place different values on what we can achieve with our systems. Luckily I have a wife that accepts my explanation that my ATC 150 active speakers are ‘essential’ in our sitting room!
Of course I do not need to daisy chain £2k audiophile switches because I use a single Innuos PhoenixNET switch!
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Try adding the optional LPS power supply to the Zen mini at some point. I think you might be surprised what a difference that makes.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Sounds like you should spend £100 on a good DAC with a buffer and a TOSLink input.If you're using USB, then you'll get perfect data transfer from whatever device that you're using to stream. However, if you're using some type of S/PDIF (coax, optical or AES/EBU), then there is a chance for issues like jitter, along with the vagaries of transmission and reception problems.
That's why I always use USB if I have a choice. You can't improve upon perfect data transmission.
USB works but it's surprising how often its proponents recommend buying just one more weird dongle to reach perfection. USB wasn't designed for this alone.
It seems to me that if jitter is a problem and your DAC is relying on an upstream clock, your DAC is basicly broken. Most people's phones can do better than that. Please correct me if I've misunderstood something.
cooky1257
pfm Member
Well I thought it had a very detailed and initially impressive hifi sound but it lacked the solidity and body I like, it has lean and grainy upper mids that were cruelly exposed by my ATCs.The A6 is a great piece of user friendly kit but suffers the same sonic limitations I found in the WiiM Pro and Bluesound node.
Already done that. It did make a difference, perhaps not a massive one.
garyi
leave blank
Maybe you haven’t listened to the right alternatives? For me the difference between the 2i and an Innuos Zen was worthwhile as was the difference when I upgraded to the Zenith but we all place different values on what we can achieve with our systems. Luckily I have a wife that accepts my explanation that my ATC 150 active speakers are ‘essential’ in our sitting room!
Of course I do not need to daisy chain £2k audiophile switches because I use a single Innuos PhoenixNET switch!
I have, I really have in my own system and over extensive listening sessions.
I maintain that your biggest bang for buck is in the dac. A raspberry pi feeding a chord dac for instance sounds wonderful, I have a node here feeding a thoroughly decent Gustard dac. IMO this is the way to go, not worrying so much about the streaming hardware, rather more on its software, leaving the heavy lifting to the dac.
juicy_clams
so much music, so little time
Some intriguing opinions here... I'm wondering how different USB cables (or devices) can transmit 1's and 0's differently or better than another? Maybe the more expensive USB cables (or devices) make the 1's and 0's dress up nice, perhaps?
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
No need to wonder because the 1’s and 0’s are all transmitted the same. There are other issues at play though.Some intriguing opinions here... I'm wondering how different USB cables (or devices) can transmit 1's and 0's differently or better than another? Maybe the more expensive USB cables (or devices) make the 1's and 0's dress up nice, perhaps?
For instance it is not just hardware that can make a difference. Each time Roon announces a new version I try it again on my Antipodes but soon revert back to LMS and Squeezelite for best sound quality. I have tried Minimserver and MPD as well but LMS + Squeezelite trumps that. All of these used in bit perfect mode of course.
With the hardware I was honestly very surprised how much difference the Innuos PhoenixUSB reclocker can make to the sound. Of course there will be those that say that the reclocking cannot make any difference to USB and I have sympathy with that view but the PhoenixUSB is doing something nice and I like it. My own view is that perhaps it is filtering noise in its regenerated USB signal.