You should vote the way you want to (obviously), but it's the minority position. If things are to change, one of the two main parties will have to do the heavy lifting (PR or a progressive alliance of some sort) and I'm not seeing any signs of that at the moment. One interesting 2024 election scenario is the SNP holding sway in Parliament. That might lead to some form of re-direction.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII
- Thread starter Seeker_UK
- Start date
You should vote the way you want to (obviously), but it's the minority position. If things are to change, one of the two main parties will have to do the heavy lifting (PR or a progressive alliance of some sort) and I'm not seeing any signs of that at the moment. One interesting 2024 election scenario is the SNP holding sway in Parliament. That might lead to some form of re-direction.
Nick_G
pfm Member
Far-left is leaders like Lenin, Stalin, and Mao Zedong. I see no-one with politics like that on this forum.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I didn't say I'd not gathered your meaning. What I am arguing is that the way you expressed it lends itself to misunderstanding on a casual reading. So: many ways of reading what you wrote would construe the intent I suggested. Not that I, after many readings, had construed it as such.
This is what you often do. Lay little linguistic traps so that you can argue against anybody who falls into them. It's a form of trolling, and it's also what I just did.
Tony L
Administrator
This is exactly why to my logic it makes sense to vote against Labour in anything other than a Lab/Tory marginal. For any other marginal seat; Tory/Lib, Lab/Lib, Lab/SNP, Lab/Green, Lab/PC it makes sense to vote against Labour and for the more democratic and less authoritarian progressive party with the aim of a hung parliament. Vote for the parties that will drag Starmer towards democratic accountability and away from Tory authoritarianism. This applies only in the many seats Tories can’t possibly win. In safe seats just vote on conscience. Your vote there doesn’t matter. Sadly I’m in a safe seat, if I lived where Drood does I’d unquestionably vote LD as they stand a chance there and support PR, consistently stand up for human rights, civil liberties and against authoritarianism. I do not want Starmer’s Tory party to have absolute power. They are bad enough in opposition!
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I wonder how many Conservative constituencies are still truly safe seats.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
And Jeremy Corbyn shirley!
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Students were voting green here in the local election in large numbers. Starmer will pay for back-tracking on the principle of free education.
"(c) Higher education shall be made equally accessible to all, on the basis of capacity, by every appropriate means, and in particular by the progressive introduction of free education"
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. [The UK is a signatory, not that you'd know it!]
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/cescr.pdf
"(c) Higher education shall be made equally accessible to all, on the basis of capacity, by every appropriate means, and in particular by the progressive introduction of free education"
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. [The UK is a signatory, not that you'd know it!]
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/cescr.pdf
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Tony L
Administrator
I can’t remember a government as hated as this one, so hopefully quite a substantial number. There’s a lot up in the air though, e.g. how billionaire oligarchs such as Arron Banks spend their money. He certainly bought some of Johnson’s majority last time targeting the ‘red wall’.
I expect the far-right and various Brexit money-launderers to play an exceptionally dirty game in 2024. Their whole scam is being all the more visible and they’ll fight to the death to defend what they have stolen from us. I’m not underestimating what is ahead at all.
Tory thug Lee Anderson has already stated the Conservatives will be fighting on racism and transphobia (for more of it, obviously). That sets the playing field, and Starmer seems to have accepted the Tory rules and turned up to play. We’d stand a chance with a real opposition challenging this far-right shit on moral/ideological grounds, but as it is we have both heads of the establishment beast to fight.
But isn't there more chance of some change with Labour in power? I know the Labour = Conservatives trope is very popular on these shores (as is...Starmner has no POV/policies) but in reality, it's not really the case (see some of the propaganda coming out of today's NatSoc conference). And if you're prediction that it will be a close election comes true then all the more reason to vote Labour. Making a stand and dying on the proverbial hill is all very well and good (see the Corbyn trainwreck - nice ads though), but the best opportunity for change, limited as it may be at the moment, is Labour. Your position seems more idealistic than tactical, and discounts any potential progressive shift in Labour policy after the election. Moreover, I would have thought that you would be partial to Labour's green policies.
Tony L
Administrator
Labour would be the largest party in any scenario I’m describing. I just feel we would have a far better government without a Labour majority as every other party I mentioned believe in democratic reform, political accountability, and fight far harder against fascism, authoritarianism and bigotry. There will be no meaningful change with a Starmer majority as he has stated he actively supports the things that have ruined the UK (FPTP, Brexit, authoritarianism, neoliberalism, neoconservatism etc). He is on the same page as the Tories on every main issue even stating he won’t overturn far-right laws such as removing basic protest rights etc. He won’t even stand with the unions that created and own his party. Starmer can do one IMO.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I guess the problem is the Conservative Party have become basically UKIP and Labour under Starmer is rapidly becoming a kind of pre-Brexit Conservative Party ("I don't care if people think I'm a conservative, says Starmer").
So you're right. Labour remain less evil/insane than the Tories. But that's a pretty low bar and hardly cause for celebration. I don't see any chance of real change.
No good option really so I'll just vote for which ever party best represents my own views.
Tony L
Administrator
I think Starmer is a Conservative, and with a big ‘C’!
paulfromcamden
Baffled
P.S. what exactly are Labour's green policies? Pretty much every Labour 'green' policy of the past decade has mentioned jobs in the first paragraph. I just don't think they value the environment for it's own sake or really 'get' the climate emergency. If feel they have to make an economic justification for saving the planet they're never going to take the action we all need them to.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
FIFY
Richard Lines
pfm Member
I have mixed views but it was widely suggested the drive for it in Scotland was that the SNP thought it might 'carry the day' for independence - I believe analysis of the results revealed 71% voted for and thus 29% voted against. What this might mean in an UK wide election I don't know.
Regards
Richard
Some form of coalition would be better (and hopefully more effective than the last one) but given the choice of voting for Labour and removing the Tories or voting for a minority party to hold Labour to democratic account (per your previous reply) and potentially letting the Tories back in, which would you choose?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I think you have to make some sort of risk assessment. Severity of risk (size of Tory vote) vs likelihood of the risk materialising (persistence of Tory vote).
Tony L
Administrator
I don’t see how that would be a scenario based on current data. Unless something highly unlikely happens the Tories are in for huge losses and the possible outcomes are a Labour majority or a Labour largest party result. I’d personally prefer the latter of those two options. That said we are a long way off and a lot can happen. We still don’t know how the right-wing oligarch £billions are going to be placed, though I’m sure they will be used to move us closer to fascism. I’ve always been a floating voter. I’m obviously anti-fascist so never touch anything on the right, but as best I can I do the math on the remaining options on the week leading up to the election. I certainly have no use for tribalism, I just have some core values and will vote in whatever is the most likely way to achieve them.
That said it is all but academic as I live in a multi-ethnic working class northern Labour safe seat that still got over 51% of the vote here even with Banks/Farage’s Brexit Party paying to take 8% off the table. My vote is a total waste of my time. Labour just can’t lose here.
Agree, the Conservatives are moving further right what with their parallel conferences (maybe a parallel government per Germany in the 30s is next), but this just reinforces the fact that Labour are not the Tories. At the moment, Labour seem to be pragmatic Blair + a certain tilt toward socially conservative values. Momentum FWIW label it, "New Labour re-runs".
Starmer is also trying to win an election - a grubby business that requires conversations with Red Wallers and disaffected Conservatives, a degree of political shapeshifting (pledges!), and walking the policy tightrope. Obviously, this doesn't go down well with the left/far-left but they had their 15 minutes and cocked it up. Time to ditch JC and come up with a new strategy to paraphrase Momentum. Who knows, Starmer may win and lead us all in the more moderate/left direction. And there is something to be said for incrementalism.