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End Game Digital (2023)

With respect to the Audial, I’m not really qualified to explain what these two really mean in tandem, I’m sure someone can:

● Non-oversampling, real multibit TDA1541A DAC

● Master USB device (“asynchronous USB”), operating up to 384 kHz
 
We could go a step further and decide that there's enough audio gear on the planet for current and future generations. But we're audiophiles, insatiable gear-craving creatures...

To be honest I view the audiophile market as highly dysfunctional in many ways and I’ve all but abandoned it myself (I exist in a very different vintage kit/retro-tech area). I certainly try to avoid creating landfill. I get far more enjoyment be doing the reverse and restoring nice desirable old things in the hope they will survive for many decades longer. That really is satisfying. Some areas of consumerism are unavoidable though, e.g. I’m typing this on a Chinese-made iPad Pro from about 3 years ago that I’ll likely replace this year whilst this one still has a good resale value. I certainly view audio as mature technology. Most of my main system is well over 50 years old!
 
Looks interesting. I know the Opus 21 well enough but had never heard of this. Ideally it would have an SACD drive but if the CD layer is good enough it's not an issue. I'd also ideally want BNC coax in but perhaps that can be configured. I guess my, perhaps unfounded, reservations compared to dCS would be support/longevity and resale value (particularly if buying new). Are any PFM members owners of this..?

So far, support and longevity seem to be good as the Cantata was released around 2011 and has been upgradable to the 2.0 and 3.0. You can get a 2.0 for around 2k now and then upgrade whenever you’re ready.

https://www.threshold-lovers.com/2018/10/09/resolution-audio-cantata-3-0/
 
... If a DAC works & you like how it sounds then you only need to change it if it stops working. Streamers are slightly different but most reputable manufacturers update the software continuously. ...
Yes, perhaps the only issue for an end-game DAC purchase could be long-term support for its digital interface.

If the digital hardware parts of streaming systems are changing fast and the market moves away from supporting today's digital interfaces, then a great DAC may eventually remain functional but not usable if hardware has to be changed. However, I think this is not likely to be a short-term problem when compared to changes in streaming protocols, applications and services.
 
The NJC Audio Referenc DAC appeals to me precisely because he designed it with long term support in mind. A functional downside of that is that it doesn't contain an XMOS USB controller because of the chip obsolescence problem, so it doesn't support asynchronous USB audio.
 
If the digital hardware parts of streaming systems are changing fast and the market moves away from supporting today's digital interfaces, then a great DAC may eventually remain functional but not usable if hardware has to be changed. However, I think this is not likely to be a short-term problem when compared to changes in streaming protocols, applications and services.

I suspect it will be an exceptionally slow process. The fundamentals of digital recording and replay are firmly in the ‘mature technology’ category now which is why to my mind it always makes sense to split the DAC aspect from everything to do with streaming. The basic digital formats are studio standards, e.g. 16/44, 16/92, 24/192 etc, and are all well locked down.

It is thankfully exceptionally rare something like MQA comes along, and as the endless threads on the subject suggest it is arguably of debatable integrity and can possibly be viewed as merely a monetisation or DRM mechanism. Everything else that changes can almost certainly be decoded as part of the streaming interface, e.g. a Raspberry Pi and appropriate ‘hat’ should get my 15 year old DPA DAC happily playing future high-res from Spotify, Tidal or whatever as it does (IIRC) support the underlying digital resolutions. A lot of this stuff has been around since the days of ADATs, DA88s and other early studio recording technology and is now so baked-into stuff like ProTools, Logic and all manner of studio hardware I can’t see it changing fundamentally. I’d certainly be happy to see closed-source proprietary stuff like MQA fail if it hasn’t already.

To be honest I find the whole area remarkably uninteresting. It just works and there isn’t a lot worth fiddling with at this stage in the game. Digital audio is fit for purpose and has been for a very, very long time IMHO. I’m amazed just how good say a 20 year old ECM red book CD can sound. Anything that is ‘wrong’ with digital technology subjectively can almost always be parked at the door of poor mastering decisions.
 
I agree if you are just listening to CD or 16bit/44K files, but what about if someone wants to listen to DSD recordings, or MQA, or Roon and your DAC isn't capable of decoding this data? There are some excellent 16bit DACs still about. I just spent about £4K upgrading my first Tron Seven TDA1541 based DAC I built about 15 years ago and the performance from it now is incredible.
I am not an expert on the latest codecs but my current set up seems to be ok with all of that & Innuos have started to support MQA as I understand it. Roon, not a clue so others will need to comment. The market for hi-res is probably quite small but I seem to recall this being discussed 20 plus years ago so I would expect a lot of elderly equipment to cope ok.

Not many keep gear for 20 years or even 5 years so it’s all moot really.
 
Really not my area (I have no interest in anything beyond YouTube!) so I’m happy to be corrected. Can you connect a 20+ year old Linn streaming interface to Apple Music, Spotify, Tidal, Qoboz etc? I’d have thought the OS and processor technology would be hopelessly outdated by now, kind of like trying to browse the current internet on an iPhone 3.
Probably the wrong question but Linn have certainly been offering software updates for many years on their DSM type gear. How long has the Bluesound Node been out? My Sonos 3 still does what I want it to. I don’t think obsolescence is as big a thing anymore.
 
I suspect it will be an exceptionally slow process. The fundamentals of digital recording and replay are firmly in the ‘mature technology’ category now which is why to my mind it always makes sense to split the DAC aspect from everything to do with streaming. The basic digital formats are studio standards, e.g. 16/44, 16/92, 24/192 etc, and are all well locked down.

It is thankfully exceptionally rare something like MQA comes along, and as the endless threads on the subject suggest it is arguably of debatable integrity and can possibly be viewed as merely a monetisation or DRM mechanism. Everything else that changes can almost certainly be decoded as part of the streaming interface, e.g. a Raspberry Pi and appropriate ‘hat’ should get my 15 year old DPA DAC happily playing future high-res from Spotify, Tidal or whatever as it does (IIRC) support the underlying digital resolutions. A lot of this stuff has been around since the days of ADATs, DA88s and other early studio recording technology and is now so baked-into stuff like ProTools, Logic and all manner of studio hardware I can’t see it changing fundamentally. I’d certainly be happy to see closed-source proprietary stuff like MQA fail if it hasn’t already.

To be honest I find the whole area remarkably uninteresting. It just works and there isn’t a lot worth fiddling with at this stage in the game. Digital audio is fit for purpose and has been for a very, very long time IMHO. I’m amazed just how good say a 20 year old ECM red book CD can sound. Anything that is ‘wrong’ with digital technology subjectively can almost always be parked at the door of poor mastering decisions.


While true, my Delius is the pre-FireWire version. If it had the FireWire interface, and with a suitable transport, you can upsample 16/44 to DSD to send to the DAC. Now you can argue why would I, and even dCS say they don’t know why, but also claim it sounds better. I’d love to try…well, just to try. I’m learning these custom DACs not using off the shelf DAC chips have loads of options, and even the ones 20-25 years old still have a great sound.
 
With respect to the Audial, I’m not really qualified to explain what these two really mean in tandem, I’m sure someone can:

● Non-oversampling, real multibit TDA1541A DAC

● Master USB device (“asynchronous USB”), operating up to 384 kHz
On the first, people have different preferences so I won't comment.

However the second is consistent with any off-the-shelf asynchronous USB interface board from the last 5-10 years, such as from XMOS or Amanero, or with normal design practice if integrating an asynchronous USB interface onto the DAC board.

"Master" probably refers to the DAC sample-rate clock. An asynchronous USB interface generates the DAC clock from two low-jitter crystals inside the DAC, instead of deriving the DAC clock from the incoming digital signal and suppressing its jitter. One crystal generates 384, 192, 96 and 48 kHz, the other generates 352.8, 176.4, 88.2 and 44.1 kHz. That's 48 kHz and 44.1 kHz times powers of 2.
 
Thanks, I did more or less understand that, but for additional clarification what is such a dac doing with a hi-res Qobuz 24bit 96kHz file, for example?
 
The 1541 is 44.1/16 bits and will stay there. Philips/Sony engineers thought that was plenty enough, perfection was achieved back then with and they weren’t far off the truth.
Low level distortion was high though, we can do much better now.
 
Probably the wrong question but Linn have certainly been offering software updates for many years on their DSM type gear. How long has the Bluesound Node been out? My Sonos 3 still does what I want it to. I don’t think obsolescence is as big a thing anymore.

I think it's gear and brand dependent. But, as you noted, there are many solid options that remain on the market.

Another example: I'm using a Lumin A1 (debuted in 2012), and just received a raft of updates in the newest firmware that was released in January. The A1 was Lumin/Pixel Magic's first consumer product.

To Tony's point that the actual file formats at the source are relatively static, I agree that there just isn't much evolutionary room for radical changes. PCM 24/192 is commonly available, MQA exists for those who care, & DSD is easier to transcode-to from PCM than ever before.
 
The 1541 is 44.1/16 bits and will stay there. Philips/Sony engineers thought that was plenty enough, perfection was achieved back then with and they weren’t far off the truth.
Low level distortion was high though, we can do much better now.
Okay. So can you explain the relevance (primarily to the designer) of this: ‘Master USB device operating up to 384 kHz’? I’m a little confused as to why it matters with the 1541.
 
The 1541 is 44.1/16 bits and will stay there. Philips/Sony engineers thought that was plenty enough, perfection was achieved back then with and they weren’t far off the truth.

The thing that amazes me is just how good 16/44 Red Book CD is when placed in context of the computer technology of 1982 when it was released e.g. Apple II, BBC Micro, IBM 5150, Commodore PET, Tandy TRS80, ZX Spectrum etc. As stated upthread I’m a real fan, a genuinely well recorded and mastered CD can sound stunningly good. It is fit for purpose.
 
I agree. With the technology they had it was a wonder. And remember that those expensive first Philips/Sony players still work today…
 
My elderly Quad 67 CD player still works fine although it sounds pretty dire using its analogue out but is fine through its digital out. I do think that DACs have improved in that one can now get that detail and aliveness but also in a natural way.

I popped a Benchmark DAC 1 back in my system, whilst having a play, the other day and whilst it does the job it was quite harsh and ultimately unlistenable to my ears. Admittedly I was listening to a Shostakovich string quartet which sound wise is mean’t to be a bit “on the edge”. Listening to my rock and jazz files it could well have been fine. It was a revelation to switch back to Chord where all the edginess of the original music was reproduced in a way that didn’t make me screw my face up, much like listening to a good really quartet in a concert.

Much the same with my amps. The Quad 606 and 303 still work but the sound quality is no where near as good as my newer amps. Which is a shame as I do applaud the idea of using older equipment rather than sending it to landfill (not that i’m going to do that!). I hope that what I have bought recently will go on and remain serviceable for a long time, apart from, perhaps, the MiniDSP SHD although that is almost unique in terms of its facilities; mind you, whilst it has a good ADC on board the analogue out isn’t the best and I find it best to use digital out into a better “quality” DAC.
 
Okay. So can you explain the relevance (primarily to the designer) of this: ‘Master USB device operating up to 384 kHz’? I’m a little confused as to why it matters with the 1541.

I’ll be curious to see if this is right, but AIUI it means that you can feed the DAC 384kHz, and the DAC won’t decide it doesn’t understand what it’s being fed and just produce distortion or silence or whatever else it might do when fed an out of spec signal. But the 384kHz signal will be processed as whatever multiple of 44.1 or 48kHz the chip maxes out at. I think this is 192kHz for the 1541 so it’d be kind of like a screen displaying every other frame of a 384fps video signal.
 
Admittedly I was listening to a Shostakovich string quartet which sound wise is mean’t to be a bit “on the edge”.

Was it a Harmoni Mundi recording? They mic too close for my taste, and that also adds to the edginess.
 


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