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Is this the best tonearm in the world?

The whole discussion is fascinating. I do see tonearm design as one of the last things genuinely up for discussion in audio. The very existence of so many conflicting ideas highlights just how open the field. In a way it is like loudspeakers in that the conceptual ideal* is just so laughably far out of reach all that is left is to scramble around in the mud trying everything and hoping something sticks.

*Theoretical ideal = tonally flat full-frequency range single-unit/point source of negligible mass, high efficiency and low distortion.
 
Locheeboy said:
"Is this the best tonearm in the world?"

NO !...This is...

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Audio Mods Series V Micrometer
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I'm we ye there! I have the Audiomods Series XI with 18" effective length - well a VI and a V ☺️
 
RossB said:
I've owned the Kuzma 4 Point 9 as well as the standard 4 Point. I also recently owned (briefly) a Schroder CB-9. The 4 Point 9 sounded analytical but quite thin and lightweight and I ended up trading it back to my dealer. I eventually tried the standard 4 Point and found it much better but ultimately a little bland sounding. I much prefer my Audio Origami PU7, which I find far more musical, while giving up nothing in detail, dynamics or tonality. Oh, and it's about 25% of the price of the 4 Point.

The Schroder CB-9 was a massive disappointment, and again I ended up returning it to the dealer. After hearing so much about Frank Schroder's design genius, I thought it was a poorly designed and executed arm, and I also didn't care for its sound, which had an odd colouration I attribute to the carbon fibre shaft.
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The carbon fibre CB is made by Thrax. It's a different animal to the one made by Frank. You need a 10"/10.5" or 12" and one made by Frank himself. I have heard a proper CB give the S.A.T. tonearm at £50K+ a run for its money and its a fraction of the price.
 
Hmm. I have zero expectation that a $50K arm will sound better than a $5K arm. It might, it might not. I would have to listen, but since I'm never going to buy a $50K tone-arm, I wouldn't want to waste the salesman's time. At that price the arm has become a vehicle for showing off like a child more than a means to provide heightened musical pleasure.
 
sonddek said:
Hmm. I have zero expectation that a $50K arm will sound better than a $5K arm. It might, it might not. I would have to listen, but since I'm never going to buy a $50K tone-arm, I wouldn't want to waste the salesman's time. At that price the arm has become a vehicle for showing off like a child more than a means to provide heightened musical pleasure.
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Possibly, I'm sure the manufacturing costs of the SAT are considerable plus all the margins you have to add on to guarantee the distribution channels. Funny thing is, the introduction that Fremer talks about in the video happened outside our room in Munich in 2012. I witnessed it.

 
Even with my lowly setup of PC USB->FiiO K5 Pro->Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80ohm I can hear the difference. Which is fair given the price difference.

 
Mike Reed said:
9" or 12"? Anyway, nice to have my findings confirmed. A lot more musical and better all round than my previous Five, though in all fairness, a different deck was involved (Dais now; Orbe then) and longer arm.
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I use a 9 inch. I have owned 9 and 12 inch versions of the same arm at the same time - a Kuzma Stogi Ref - and been able to compare them. The 12 inch definitely exudes an air of calm composure and has audibly less distortion (although perhaps that is placebo) than the 9 inch version, but again the 9 inch version sounded a bit more exciting, a bit more musical. Given the choice, I would take the 9 inch version, but there are certainly advantages to the 12 inch, and I would expect the 12 inch version of the PU7 to be excellent.

G T Audio said:
The carbon fibre CB is made by Thrax. It's a different animal to the one made by Frank. You need a 10"/10.5" or 12" and one made by Frank himself. I have heard a proper CB give the S.A.T. tonearm at £50K+ a run for its money and its a fraction of the price.
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I'm aware that it is made by Thrax, but I understand is a Frank Schroder design. Sound quality aside (which in my opinion is mediocre), the underlying design is a poor one.
 
Thanks for the link. I've just listened on headphones. The SAT is definitely better to my ear. Both recordings sound a bit reedy, but perhaps it's just one of those pressings. Is it me or does the SAT sound less dynamic at the finale? Control and accuracy are not synonymous with a loss of energy. It's difficult to know what is due to the tone-arm and what the deck.
 
RossB said:
I use a 9 inch. I have owned 9 and 12 inch versions of the same arm at the same time - a Kuzma Stogi Ref - and been able to compare them. The 12 inch definitely exudes an air of calm composure and has audibly less distortion (although perhaps that is placebo) than the 9 inch version, but again the 9 inch version sounded a bit more exciting, a bit more musical. Given the choice, I would take the 9 inch version, but there are certainly advantages to the 12 inch, and I would expect the 12 inch version of the PU7 to be excellent.



I'm aware that it is made by Thrax, but I understand is a Frank Schroder design. Sound quality aside (which in my opinion is mediocre), the underlying design is a poor one.
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That's very strange Ross. I have never heard a better sounding tonearm than the ones that Frank Schröder makes. Even Dohmann uses and recommends the CB for their top tables. What turntable and cartridge was the CB being used with?
 
G T Audio said:
That's very strange Ross. I have never heard a better sounding tonearm than the ones that Frank Schröder makes. Even Dohmann uses and recommends the CB for their top tables. What turntable and cartridge was the CB being used with?
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Funnily enough I bought my CB9 from Mark Dohmann, and I am aware that he recommends it for his turntables. But then I wasn't a big fan of the Kuzma 4 Point, either, which otherwise gets universal praise.

I used the CB9 with my PTP Solid 9 and an Ortofon Jubilee. One reason I bought the CB9 was that it is known to be a good combination with the PTP turntables, and Anamighty Sound recommend this combination. I set out my more extended thoughts on the arm in this thread on What's Best Forum: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ould-you-describe-its-sound.34491/post-798733

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RossB said:
I use a 9 inch. I have owned 9 and 12 inch versions of the same arm at the same time - a Kuzma Stogi Ref - and been able to compare them. The 12 inch definitely exudes an air of calm composure and has audibly less distortion (although perhaps that is placebo) than the 9 inch version, but again the 9 inch version sounded a bit more exciting, a bit more musical. Given the choice, I would take the 9 inch version, but there are certainly advantages to the 12 inch, and I would expect the 12 inch version of the PU7 to be excellent.
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Your findings are similar to mine, Ross, albeit with different arms. I don't however, agree with your 'musicality' benefit of the shorter arm; sharper, ostensibly enhanced dynamics, yes, but the surefootedness of the 12, with maybe a more expansive presentation (dependent upon cart., I guess) counteract this, I feel. However, the sheer tactility and ergonomics (=ease of handling) of the 12 was the deal breaker for me. B.t.w., I have the chrome PU7, with, I guess, a slightly heavier mass (???) My other arm on the Dais is the 12" Ace Anna unipivot. Great arm sonically but not for Koetsus i.m.o.
 
ex brickie said:
The reviewer of the arm said it was better than his Tiger Paw Javelin - but best guesses on here imply that the Supatrac would be at least 3 x the price.

More specifically though, I'd be interested in what exactly had improved vs the Javelin......
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In a nutshell, the pivot point points backwards away from the stylus and the arm is not free to wobble laterally like a traditional uni-pivot. The pivot does not bear the weight of the arm, it only opposes stylus drag so there is much less pressure at the point and you can pile on mass if your cartridge needs it, without increasing wear. Theoretically, as the pivot point wears it should perform better as elasticity in the time axis reduces. There's a PFM thread about it, so please feel free to ask questions there.
 
RossB said:
But then I wasn't a big fan of the Kuzma 4 Point, either, which otherwise gets universal praise.
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Me neither Ross re: the 4-point. I know you have to spend time with Frank's tonearms to fine tune them. I have sold Thales Simplicity tonearms to owners of the 4-Point and the Air Line tonearms to resolve set up and operational issues. The owners got an improvement in sound too which was a win win situation for them.
 
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