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Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade

Thanks Tony
It’s actually a cheap 3d printed copy from eBay. It fits really well having been designed to be used without changing the armrest and lift lever. I think it’s tightened the bass and improved the detail slightly. I’m really pleased with it. With fluid the whole thing stands me in just under £30.
 
Hi SLN57,
Your TD124 II looks pristine, may I ask whether it required serious restoration, and if so, did you undertake all the work yourself, and finally may I also ask if the top platter is an original or a 'Retrotone' replacement?
I'm asking because I'm unsure how to 'proceed' with the TD124 II which I've owned since the '70's, and has only been in intermittent use since the 80's, it was however re-plinthed and 'serviced' @ 'Loricraft' in 2010.
Regards
Mike K.
 
Hi Mike
My father gave it to me last year as he no longer used it. It hadn’t been run for 10 years or so. Cosmetically it was in very good condition but the motor was seized and all the pivots had gummed up. I rebuilt the motor using new bushes etc, although I think I could have just cleaned and re-lubed the old ones. I cleaned and re-lubed everything else, changed the idler pulley for one from Audiosilente and fitted a sapphire bearing/bronze cap upgrade on the main platter bearing. It originally had the Zamac platter but I bought the cast iron version as most people feel it’s better despite its magnetic issues. The sub platter does have between 0.5 and 1.25mm of run out on the bottom edge, depending where it lands on the main platter, and has some dishing on the flat part. I have a Retrotone platter on order, although I feel I might have let OCD get the better of me with that decision. I bought the plinth from eBay and I have done all the work myself except the re-wiring of the tone arm.
The TD 124 is so well designed that working on it is very easy. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed getting this thing up and running and the best bit is it looks beautiful and sounds great.
 
Hi SLN67,
Thank you for a comprehensive reply.
I've been procrastinating about mine for months - unable to decide whether to attempt the overhaul myself, or make a decision regarding which of the 'alleged' specialists to select to send it to for an overhaul.
Sadly, so far, I've been unable to overcome the paranoia that packing and sending it overseas via a courier induces.
Regards
Mike K.
 
Hi Mike
You should give it a try yourself. There’s really not too much you can destroy if you’re methodical, take your time and most importantly read everything online about the job in hand. At the end of the day you can always pass it on to a specialist if you get stuck.
Spencer
 
Agreed. My advice after what was a very long learning process is to change as little as you possibly can. Just clean everything very thoroughly, lube what needs lubing (I found a source for the correct Thorens specification oil a few pages back) and just approach things slowly with great care and respect. Thorens knew exactly what they were doing. This thread is hopefully of use as long as it is read in full as it makes the various rabbit holes to avoid pretty clear. Again: trust the original Thorens design and engineering quality and be very, very cynical of expensive third-party claims.

PS Do carefully check all the mains wiring though, the black two-core internal wiring in mine was certainly getting dangerous due to PVC degradation. A TD-124 should definitely be properly mains earthed IMO, that is the only area I’d personally take issue with the original design.
 
Agreed. My advice after what was a very long learning process is to change as little as you possibly can. Just clean everything very thoroughly, lube what needs lubing (I found a source for the correct Thorens specification oil a few pages back) and just approach things slowly with great care and respect. Thorens knew exactly what they were doing. This thread is hopefully of use as long as it is read in full as it makes the various rabbit holes to avoid pretty clear. Again: trust the original Thorens design and engineering quality and be very, very cynical of expensive third-party claims.

PS Do carefully check all the mains wiring though, the black two-core internal wiring in mine was certainly getting dangerous due to PVC degradation. A TD-124 should definitely be properly mains earthed IMO, that is the only area I’d personally take issue with the original design.

Can you tell me which oil you settled on? I looked through and am not sure what specific formula it is. I've been using Mobil DTE 24 but it seems a bit thin and I need to get my hands on some more.

Second on the mains earthing!
 
Can you tell me which oil you settled on? I looked through and am not sure what specific formula it is. I've been using Mobil DTE 24 but it seems a bit thin and I need to get my hands on some more.

Second on the mains earthing!
You want ISO 46 viscosity.
 
The oil I’m using is Mobil DTE, which is a direct match for the stuff Thorens specified. Link here. It is the first stuff I’ve used that has sorted speed-drift as the deck warms up. Go either way from this and it either starts fast and slow down as it gets warm (e.g. Schopper oil), or starts slow and speeds up (thicker viscosity e.g. the stuff for Revox tape decks). I’m also back using the original Thorens motor bushings as mine were absolutely fine other than being a bit grubby and seem just a little freer running than the Audio Silente, which I’ll keep as a spare for the future.
 
The oil in Tony's link is ideal. Mobil DTE medium is ISO 46, which is equivalent to the SAE 20 specified by Thorens.

You can improve the speed drift issue even further by selecting an fully synthetic oil with a higher viscosity index (not the same thing as higher viscosity).

Anyway, DTE medium is a good choice and readily available.
 
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One thing I’d add is don’t become obsessed with unloaded motor spin-down time. Some of the boutique refurbishers seem to view it as a marketing strategy to get to 30-40 seconds or so, which is indeed possible with the very lightweight Schopper oil (I’ve done it myself). I’d be prepared to bet Thorens never had this as a target as the ISO 46 oil seems to give around 15-20 seconds or so. ISO 46 works in the deck far better IME, and stays around a lot longer in the top motor bearing than the really thin stuff too. Make sure the felts are fresh and fully saturated with oil. That is one part definitely worth replacing with new.

PS I highly recommend vacuum loading the bushings with the new oil after a very thorough cleaning, I highlight my syringe technique here.
 
I know it is likely mentioned elsewhere but to save searching through 30 plus pages, I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to advise what drill bit diameter is needed to drill out motor rivets without damaging anything?
 
I really can’t remember, but you can size it by eye pretty easy. Remember you are just drilling the head off the rivet, you shouldn’t even touch the metal casing beneath. Just take your time. I’d go a bit large rather than small. You are just gently eroding the rivet head down until it snaps off and the rest of the rivet can then be pushed through.
 
Hi Mike
You should give it a try yourself........Spencer
Hi Spencer,
Thank you for your encouragement.
The D.I.Y. solution would save me a great deal of money, some of which might be used to 'acquire' a 'Retrotone' top platter - dare I say - Win - Win?
Regards
Mike K.
 
Hi Mike
No problem. I found whole process very rewarding and immensely satisfying, I hope you do too.
BTW my Retrotone platter has been delivered this morning. Today's going to be a 'POETS Day' :).
 
I swapped main bearings earlier today, partly out of curiosity, partly to see if I wanted to sell the Schopper (a decision I still haven’t made).

Somewhere way up towards the start of the thread I highlighted that my original bearing shaft had some really bizarre pitting. I couldn’t explain it, and I’m still baffled. I replaced it with the crazy expensive Schopper, which doesn’t seem to be available anymore. Then about 4-5 years ago I saw an original Thorens spindle for sale from one of those eBay sellers who asset-strips 124s, so I bought it just to have it. I cleaned it up, rebuilt the original bearing and just put it away in my parts stash as a spare. I finally got around to fitting it today.The only annoying thing is it is a very slightly different height, just sufficiently taller than the Schopper I had to adjust the top-platter clutch. Probably <0.5mm, so no huge issue. I suspect it will be down to a slightly different plastic thrust pad rather than actual engineering tolerance. I can’t vouch for the provenance of the one in my original bearing (though it does look original).

I’m still getting to grips with what the sonic differences are, but they are pretty subtle. Certainly far more subtle than say a Cirkus vs. pre-Cirkus in a Linn, but I think it breaks down vaguely similar lines; the Schopper being a bit more ‘Cirkus-like’, brighter, crisper and weightier, the original Thorens a bit more mid-centric and easy going. In my system, which is on the warm and weighty side anyway, I think I’m preferring the original. Just. The problem is, just like the pre-Cirkus/Cirkus evaluations I went through with my old Linn decades ago, it takes such a long time to swap them over any evaluation has to be made as a long term gut feel rather than a conventional A/B. The Thorens is way easier to work on than a Linn when it comes to swapoung a bearing, but even so it is still longer than I’m prepared to commit to on simple audio memory. I’d argue long-term is a far better way of evaluating kit anyway. I usually find fast dealer dems etc an absolute disaster as ones instinct is to pick the most impressive, which most often fails to connect/satisfy long-term. I like to see if I’m still enjoying listening and discovering new music in a month or so.

FWIW I’m not hearing any plus or minus with regard to rumble, I’m sure that which is still present in my system is down to the idler, and that is greatly improved since the MG Chemicals Rubber Renew I linked to a page or two back. Must have played about five or six albums so far and the deck as a whole really is sounding good. Currently on Ulrich Schnauss Far Away Trains Passing By, which always sounds stunning. This deck really is sounding as good as it looks now. I have a feeling this bearing will be in for a long while now, maybe forever.
 
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The oil I’m using is Mobil DTE, which is a direct match for the stuff Thorens specified. Link here. It is the first stuff I’ve used that has sorted speed-drift as the deck warms up. Go either way from this and it either starts fast and slow down as it gets warm (e.g. Schopper oil), or starts slow and speeds up (thicker viscosity e.g. the stuff for Revox tape decks). I’m also back using the original Thorens motor bushings as mine were absolutely fine other than being a bit grubby and seem just a little freer running than the Audio Silente, which I’ll keep as a spare for the future.

Thanks for the link! It looks like that may be marketed as DTE 25 here in the States. The DTE 24 has worked well but seems a bit on the thin side, plus the new Ultra formulation is all that's available and I'm not sure if the anti-wear additives are going to play well with the sintered bronze.

I may swap back to the original bushings as well... they've been sitting in solvent for about 9 months after rebuild, but the AS bushings are tight. I don't think this is necessarily an issue with my setup but I do wonder about mucking up the motor shaft long term.
 


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