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Racism, sexism etc in sport.

Is it not true that an 'average' male athlete not getting onto podiums in the male events can when transitioned to female suddenly start getting podium finishes in the female events/competing for podium finishes? I realise this is a complex and highly emotive topic but my gut feeling is this is unfair to natal females.
Yet this is not what is happening in the limited examples available to us. Transwomen are not wholly dominating the sports they are competing in.
 
The point I made then, a now, is that make puberty is no assumption, but a biological fact. These changes are for the most part irreversible. No assumptions. But still you won't listen to this simple statement, 5 pages on!
No, puberty is not an assumption. Stating that trans women have a definite, scientifically validated advantage is, in my opinion, an assumption. That is what you took issue with. But it seems now you are arguing something completely different.
 
Yes, why not? As I stated earlier, one way out of the impasse may be to abolish gender categories and initiate categories based on height, weight etc. as in certain other sports.

Would anyone disagree that the quality of women’s football has improved dramatically over the last decade or so? Or perhaps the quality was always there- it’s that the women’s game is now taken as seriously as the men’s. In either case, it’s undeniable that the top women’s footballers exhibit skills comparable to male players. So, although there are no physically demarcated categories in football, why not have mixed football. Why should women’s smaller physique be any impediment in specific positions. There are plenty of examples of male players in possession of small frames and diminutive stature, who are amongst the greatest players in history. Luka Modric, Lionel Messi and David Silva off the top of my head.

This is the key point - mixed sex sport does not work, if you had mixed elite football you basically wouldn't have any female players. And you don't need to be involved with elite sport to realise this, I work with weekend youth football and we play mixed under 12s, beyond that the physical differences are simply too great, and it's not close.
 
FFS, this is where we started! I'm done talking to you.
Yes, you’ve said that previously, but generally continue to post. In post #9 you stated “It's not questionable, it's the biological fact of having gone through a male puberty. This is acknowledged by sports physiologist s to confer a biological advantage.” You then go on to contradict yourself in post #125, where you state “Unless we can prove that neither has an advantage. And there, the jury is firmly out.” And on that basis then try to characterise your argument all along as establishing the existence of puberty. Risible.
 
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Yes, why not? As I stated earlier, one way out of the impasse may be to abolish gender categories and initiate categories based on height, weight etc. as in certain other sports.

Would anyone disagree that the quality of women’s football has improved dramatically over the last decade or so? Or perhaps the quality was always there- it’s that the women’s game is now taken as seriously as the men’s. In either case, it’s undeniable that the top women’s footballers exhibit skills comparable to male players. So, although there are no physically demarcated categories in football, why not have mixed football. Why should women’s smaller physique be any impediment in specific positions. There are plenty of examples of male players in possession of small frames and diminutive stature, who are amongst the greatest players in history. Luka Modric, Lionel Messi and David Silva off the top of my head.
What utter tosh!
Women’s football is still light years away from men in terms of stamina, technique and speed. No top woman footballer is comparable to a top man. It’s laughable to even suggest it.
 
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Why should women’s smaller physique be any impediment in specific positions.
Pushing it a bit, I just imagine the gracile, geisha-sized footballeress trying to stop an Erling Haaland in full swing... she'd find herself on the bleachers in the fanzone :D
 
This is a bit like that economic debate for a while ago.

Does anyone on her have any real expertise & knowledge. I know Steve67 is rather clever so I doubt he is wrong on this. Others seem to confuse science fact with opinion.
 
Does anyone on her have any real expertise & knowledge. I know Steve67 is rather clever so I doubt he is wrong on this. Others seem to confuse science fact with opinion.
Steady on. :)

It does rather remind me of the time I had the Jehovah's Witnesses call. "Had I ever considered where we came from?" Cue a pamphlet showing dinosaurs, humans and other mammals apparently coexisting. "Yes, I have actually. I studied it as part of my degree, albeit a number of years ago. The evolutionary model is highly convincing and supported by a good deal of scientific evidence." After a brief discussion they then seemed to be in a hurry to get to the next house to hand out more leaflets, a shame, one of them was quite cute and it was a nice day.
 
The expert, rather than the ‘some guy on an internet forum’ view.

“A report on transgender women athletes in elite sport has found that if UCI rules are adhered to, there is currently no substantial evidence of any biological advantages for trans women competing in elite women’s sport.

It found there was little evidence that biomedical factors related to male puberty such as lung size, bone density and hip-to-knee joint angle predict an unfair advantage. But some evidence that social factors like nutrition, training and access to equipment do.”

https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/f...esandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/trans-women-athletes-have-no-unfair-advantage-under-current-rules-study-finds?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social
 
Pushing it a bit, I just imagine the gracile, geisha-sized footballeress trying to stop an Erling Haaland in full swing... she'd find herself on the bleachers in the fanzone :D
Perhaps, perhaps not. But if Wesley Sneijder was capable of playing against the world’s greatest defenders, then can’t think why a woman of equal skill could not do likewise.
 
What utter tosh!
Women’s football is still light years away at from men in terms of stamina, technique and speed. No top woman footballer is comparable to a top man. It’s laughable to even suggest it.
What criteria was employed to arrive at that assessment Bob?
 
I would imagine that a working knowledge of the game and a decent amount of common sense would be the answer here.
The “common sense” view. Frequently indistinguishable from the “it’s obvious innit?” view, aka the argument of the pub bore.

There was a credible view expressed earlier in this thread that stated mixed gender sports being potentially off putting to women. Probably nowhere as off-putting than an old sexist telling women they can’t hope to emulate men at football.

It’s a view that was abysmally outdated 12 years ago when Andy Gray and Richard Keys were sacked by Sky Sports for saying women were unfit to officiate at football matches and no less abysmal now.
 
The expert, rather than the ‘some guy on an internet forum’ view.

“A report on transgender women athletes in elite sport has found that if UCI rules are adhered to, there is currently no substantial evidence of any biological advantages for trans women competing in elite women’s sport.

It found there was little evidence that biomedical factors related to male puberty such as lung size, bone density and hip-to-knee joint angle predict an unfair advantage. But some evidence that social factors like nutrition, training and access to equipment do.”

https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/f...esandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...flow&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social
This 'report' is laughable bunk.

Why are you so keen to erase 'female'? Genuinely interested to know where this impulse comes from.
 
There is no real proper data on this, if testosterone has no advantage then why is it a banned substance?

The idea that men & women can compete on the same level is laughable.

Cycling is also a really poor example as participation levels are way higher in males compared to females. More participation means more competition & higher standards.
 
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The “common sense” view. Frequently indistinguishable from the “it’s obvious innit?” view, aka the argument of the pub bore.

There was a credible view expressed earlier in this thread that stated mixed gender sports being potentially off putting to women. Probably nowhere as off-putting than an old sexist telling women they can’t hope to emulate men at football.

It’s a view that was abysmally outdated 12 years ago when Andy Gray and Richard Keys were sacked by Sky Sports for saying women were unfit to officiate at football matches and no less abysmal now.
Nothing wrong with "common sense." Certainly better than an ideological position that equates "common sense" with "The pub bore" or "An old sexist." It saddens me, on this forum, when anyone who even mildly disagrees with a supposedly progressive or enlightened point of view is blithely branded a fascist, racist, sexist, a Tory, or lately "gammon." Surely the progressive and enlightened position should be tolerant and respectful of other opinions.
This last sentence is not aimed at you Finnegan, of course, since you are certainly determined and persistent, but always gentle and affable.
 
What criteria was employed to arrive at that assessment Bob?
Bob (and I and others) watch a lot of football.
Women's football has come on in leaps and bounds and I think will continue to improve but there is always going to be a significant difference. In my old sexist opinion.

Or via Google:
- Manchester United women beaten 9-0 by Salford youth team.
- Arsenal Women suffer an 5-0 defeat by their boys' U15 side in behind closed doors friendly.
- Athletic Bilbao's male youngsters have beaten their women's team 6-0 in a friendly.
The academy side, made up of 14, 15 and 16 year olds, secured a huge win against their professional opponents ahead of the new season.
- Australian women's national team lose 7-0 to team of 15-year-old boys.
- U.S. women’s national team played the FC Dallas U-15 boys academy team on Sunday and fell 5-2, according to FC Dallas’ official website.
- Gremio Men's Under 16s Beat Brazil Women's National Team 6-0 In Intergender Match.

Mind no one can stop Haaland. Stop the supply to Haaland is the (easier said than done) answer...he can't score if he doesn't have the ball.
 


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