Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

[Brian]

Wonder if I might ask- while telling everyone here they should vote Labour, you admitted you don’t actually vote for them, that you have voted tactically. In an English constituency where the seat is Conservative, which party can a Labour supporter possibly vote ‘tactically’ for to unseat a Tory MP?

I have not told anyone they should vote Labour. Vote for whichever party you like, what I’ve done is highlight the consequences against the backdrop of endless complaining about the tory govt and brexit. Obvs the LibDems have muddied the waters since proving they are essentially tories, but a person can only do their best. Voting to unseat a Labour MP, 40 of them in Scotland, or not voting for Labour when they have a chance of winning a seat is helping the tories. If you don’t see that I certainly can’t help you. I’m sure google can help with tactical voting.

Wonder if I might ask- how does taking seats from Labour the party previously held, 40 of them, help Labour to a majority over the tories? Every seat counts.

I’m also wondering at the difference between those who voted for the UK to leave its biggest trading partner (EU) versus those in Scotland who want to vote for Scotland to leave its biggest trading partner (UK).

 

[monkfish]

I have not told anyone they should vote Labour. Vote for whichever party you like, what I’ve done is highlight the consequences against the backdrop of endless complaining about the tory govt and brexit. Obvs the LibDems have muddied the waters since proving they are essentially tories, but a person can only do their best. Voting to unseat a Labour MP, 40 of them in Scotland, or not voting for Labour when they have a chance of winning a seat is helping the tories. If you don’t see that I certainly can’t help you. I’m sure google can help with tactical voting.

Wonder if I might ask- how does taking seats from Labour the party previously held, 40 of them, help Labour to a majority over the tories? Every seat counts.

I’m also wondering at the difference between those who voted for the UK to leave its biggest trading partner (EU) versus those in Scotland who want to vote for Scotland to leave its biggest trading partner (UK).

Yawn, usual crap.

 

[Spraggons Den]

Callaghan was a Thatcher enabler

Agreed but he was also a keen European who realised the days of empire were gone.

 

[ks.234]

Agreed but he was also a keen European who realised the days of empire were gone.

Mmmm, he believed in something we have lost due to the tory ideology he enabled, and he realised the bleedin' obvious.

On the other hand he did choose to believe that government spending was a bad thing and neoliberalism was a good thing.

Regardless of the weight you put to either, he did buy into the same ideology as Thatcher which places him near to, and instrumental to, the beginning of the 50 year decline to where we are now

 

[Tony L]

Regardless of the weight you put to either, he did buy into the same ideology as Thatcher which places him near, to and instrumental to, the beginning of the 50 year decline to where we are now

One could argue that ideology was entirely unproven at the time. To my mind it came in with Reagan and Thatcher, and you can’t really blame people for not accurately predicting the future. The UK was a mess in the 1970s and few if any saw just how much worse it was about to get.

Again I’m going with Blair here. He knew exactly what Thatcher’s brand of neoliberalism was, he saw the outsourcing, the worship of the London Square Mile and he built upon that house of sand even following a US Republican Christian fundamentalist into a religious war. I have mixed feelings about Blair as I effectively won a free house, albeit a pretty crap one, on his property bubble, but that aside I absolutely detest the two-faced sanctimonious authoritarian twunt.

Starmer looks set to build on a slightly diluted version of the alt-right Bannon/Farage/Trump/Johnson vision that has defined the past 10-15 years. I expect more of the same third-rate Tory tribute act from Labour. Starmer will be to Johnson what Blair was to Thatcher. Not standing forcefully and unambiguously against far-right-wing ideology is enabling it.

 

[Spraggons Den]

Mmmm, he believed in something we have lost due to the tory ideology he enabled, and he realised the bleedin' obvious.

On the other hand he did choose to believe that government spending was a bad thing and neoliberalism was a good thing.

Regardless of the weight you put to either, he did buy into the same ideology as Thatcher which places him near to, and instrumental to, the beginning of the 50 year decline to where we are now

I can't help think your doing Lucky Jim (as he was nicknamed before the Winter of Discontent) a disservice. I was quite young at the time but from what I remember, Callaghan came across as a believer in the social contract and the central role played by government in delivering fairer economic distribution.

It was Thatcher who blew everything up.

 

[ks.234]

I can't help think your doing Lucky Jim (as he was nicknamed before the Winter of Discontent) a disservice. I was quite young at the time but from what I remember, Callaghan came across as a believer in the social contract and the central role played by government in delivering fairer economic distribution.

It was Thatcher who blew everything up.

Callaghan blew up the social contract when he said,

“We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step”
​

The “used to” he is referring to there is the social contract

 

[TheDecameron]

I have not told anyone they should vote Labour. Vote for whichever party you like, what I’ve done is highlight the consequences against the backdrop of endless complaining about the tory govt and brexit. Obvs the LibDems have muddied the waters since proving they are essentially tories, but a person can only do their best. Voting to unseat a Labour MP, 40 of them in Scotland, or not voting for Labour when they have a chance of winning a seat is helping the tories. If you don’t see that I certainly can’t help you. I’m sure google can help with tactical voting.

Wonder if I might ask- how does taking seats from Labour the party previously held, 40 of them, help Labour to a majority over the tories? Every seat counts.

I’m also wondering at the difference between those who voted for the UK to leave its biggest trading partner (EU) versus those in Scotland who want to vote for Scotland to leave its biggest trading partner (UK).

The only tactical vote in your situation is:
LibDem

Provided of course you understand what tactical voting actually is because it’s you who claims to have voted tactically.

 

[ks.234]

One could argue that ideology was entirely unproven at the time. To my mind it came in with Reagan and Thatcher, and you can’t really blame people for not accurately predicting the future. The UK was a mess in the 1970s and few if any saw just how much worse it was about to get

You raise an important point in that the significance of Nixon coming off the Gold standard in the early 70's and the removal of the convertibility of the £ to gold was not realised until the mid 90's and has still not become mainstream even today.

However, I don't criticise Callaghan for not reading the future, but for renouncing the social contract what was current at his time and been current for the previous 20 or 30 years.

We can go back to Ramsey McDonald who adopted the wisdom of the age which was classical Liberal economics that at time of recession it was necessary to cut spending, raise taxes and increase unemployment, but at that time there really was no alternative. But Keynes showed that it was possible to deal with a recession by increasing spending and increasing employment.

Callaghan turned his back on Keynes, embraced Milton Friedman, and, going forward, committed Labour to Thatcherite ideology where it has been ever since.

That was his big mistake because it created a black-hole-like centre of gravity that economics has yet to escape from.

Callaghan's big assumption and Thatcher's big lie was that there is no alternative. There was, there still is, and on an evidence based analysis, a least one alternative that would be a whole lot better than wot we got

 

[Spraggons Den]

Callaghan blew up the social contract when he said,

“We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step”
​

The “used to” he is referring to there is the social contract

Jim was reeling from the country’s humiliation by the IMF in 76 and was probably still scarred by the devaluation of the pound under Wilson in the 60s so not surprising he was looking for new ways to improve the economy. Could it be that the “we used to think” is referring to Keynesian economics and Callaghan was trying to tweak it with other measures. At heart, he was a one nation social democrat.

 

[ks.234]

Jim was reeling from the country’s humiliation by the IMF in 76 and was probably still scarred by the devaluation of the pound under Wilson in the 60s so not surprising he was looking for new ways to improve the economy. Could it be that the “we used to think” is referring to Keynesian economics and Callaghan was trying to tweak it with other measures. At heart, he was a one nation social democrat.

All of your assumptions are inconsistent with the quote from Callaghan himself

 

[Brian]

The only tactical vote in your situation is:
LibDem
Brexit Party*

Provided of course you understand what tactical voting actually is because it’s you who claims to have voted tactically.

* I put Brexit Party back in to your post per your initial effort prior to your edit.
I just checked and the Brexit party didn’t have a candidate here, so I don’t where that peculiar comment came from, though I suspect spite. What else could it be?

Anyway...my situation?

I’ve been voting since 1979 and I’ve voted in the hope the tories do not get a majority. You have a different priority. As I said earlier, I assume you missed it, the LibDems have muddied things since 2010 when they showed their true colours.

In ‘my situation’ there has never been anything other than a tory MP here, though amazingly I’ve voted in quite a few different parts of the country. It is Con, Lab, LD and Green with Lab and LD switching from time to time but both thousands off the pace. It reinforces my wish to PR. At other times it hasn’t been so clearcut.

I’ve answered you, now how about you breaking your habit and answering something someone asks you rather than making assertions and ignoring what you are asked?
A reminder below...

How does taking 40 seats from Labour the party previously held help Labour to a majority over the tories? Every seat counts.

What is the difference between those who voted for the UK to leave its biggest trading partner (EU) versus those in Scotland who want to vote for Scotland to leave its biggest trading partner (UK)? It’s said the first are thick racist gammon.

I probably won’t be able to check back until tomorrow evening. Just mentioning it since you’re prone to accusing people of disappearing. I have other things to do.

 

[Spraggons Den]

All of your assumptions are inconsistent with the quote from Callaghan himself

Don’t know quite what you mean…anyway thank you for rekindling my interest in the UK politics of that era. Having just read a transcript of the full speech, I think there is a lot in there you would like:

Comrades, there is a line of poetry which is a good line for socialists, even if it was not intended to be:
A man’s reach should exceed his grasp
Or what’s a Heaven for?

Plus:

We repealed the Industrial Relations Act. We passed into law the new Trade Union and Labour Relations Act. We put on the statute book an Act to protect employment. We passed an Act to safeguard health and safety at work. We have established the new Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service for both sides of industry to use.

And for Tony :

Let me turn to another aspect of our modern society: freedom. Democratic socialists emphasise that a fundamental aspect of freedom is the freedom of minorities within our society. Freedom from discrimination. There can be no equivocation, and there is none in the Labour Movement, on racial matters. We must oppose all forms of racial discrimination in this country and fight the messages of hatred which are designed to divide people from each other.

Regarding his views on the social contract as expressed in the speech:

This Conference decided ……that there is still no better way forward than the Social Contract to give life to this concept. That is as true for the employers as it is for the workers.

The Social Contract stands confirmed yesterday for the next three years because there is no other way, and it demands complete co-operation between the Party, the Government and the unions.

When I say there is no other way, that does not mean that it is going to be quick or easy. That has been promised before. It is neither……The route is long and hard. But the long march has at last begun… with the Social Contract and our industrial strategy as our guide.

Not the words of a man who was abandoning the social contract. The paragraph you quoted in the context of the speech was addressed more at domestic wage inflation undermining the UKs international competitiveness - Callaghan later confirmed this saying that part of his speech was widely misinterpreted.

 

[TheDecameron]

LibDem, your tactical vote. QED. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Tony L]

And for Tony :

Let me turn to another aspect of our modern society: freedom. Democratic socialists emphasise that a fundamental aspect of freedom is the freedom of minorities within our society. Freedom from discrimination. There can be no equivocation, and there is none in the Labour Movement, on racial matters. We must oppose all forms of racial discrimination in this country and fight the messages of hatred which are designed to divide people from each other.

Interesting. Sadly all that went right out the window when Gordon Brown met Gillian Duffy and after that even Ed Milliband started selling red Labour anti-immigration mugs. Next Corbyn found a massive fence to sit on rather than railing against the fascism of Farage, the EDL and the party directly opposite him. Now Starmer is throwing the trans community under the bus and is still steamrolling Brexit through in the face of abject economic failure and changing public opinion. In fact it all started a long time before that when Straw and Blunkett decided Habeas Corpus should be rolled back as their own tacky cover version of the US Patriot Act. I’ve said it many times before but I’m convinced Labour now have focus groups to define exactly how much racism and socially conservative bigotry is enough?!

 

[Enfield boy]

Meanwhile the homophobe Farron who avoided voting at a crucial (Brexit)time to spout rubbish elsewhere is still an MP. Not tribal huh?

 

[Tony L]

Not tribal huh?

I’m certainly not going to defend that, so no, I’m not.

I’m just a floating voter who believes in human rights and democracy. I vote for whoever is nearest to my views come an election. For a long while that was the LDs as they had PR as a manifesto pledge and I’ve realised that was the biggest problem facing the UK since I was a kid growing up in a Tory safe seat. I understood the whole thing was rigged. Our system needs reformatting before it can be rebuilt.

In recent years I’ve been very disappointed in the LDs, though I respect that they do vote against authoritarianism and for civil rights where say Labour very often don’t. I was far from a fan of the coalition, couldn’t stand Swinson, and thought the party were insane to pick Davy over Layla Moran (who I have a lot of respect for). There has been a Green candidate here both in general elections and the mayoral election recently, so I vote for them just to be counted on the national voteshare. I fully grasp voting is a total waste of my time.

 

[TheDecameron]

Interesting. Sadly all that went right out the window when Gordon Brown met Gillian Duffy and after that even Ed Milliband started selling red Labour anti-immigration mugs. Next Corbyn found a massive fence to sit on rather than railing against the fascism of Farage, the EDL and the party directly opposite him. Now Starmer is now throwing the trans community under the bus and is still steamrolling Brexit through in the face of abject economic failure and changing public opinion. In fact it all started a long time before that when Straw and Blunkett decided Habeas Corpus should be rolled back as their own tacky cover version of the US Patriot Act. I’ve said it many times before but I’m convinced Labour now have focus groups to define exactly how much racism and socially conservative bigotry is enough?!

The only charitable interpretation I can place on “Keir’s” aping of Tory positions is that it’s part of his particular Witherspoons offensive and that once his feet are safely under the desk in Downing St., he’ll start to have thosedifficultconversations™. These might include-

The threat from Albanians and transsexuals has been made up to divert your attention.

It’s time to get your dire financial circumstances off the floor and for Britain to ‘participate’ in the single market and customs union.

If Labour could show you a way to reduce your 2 hour wait to get out of the airport and down to the Costas, might you be interested?

 

[ks.234]

Don’t know quite what you mean…anyway thank you for rekindling my interest in the UK politics of that era. Having just read a transcript of the full speech, I think there is a lot in there you would like:

Comrades, there is a line of poetry which is a good line for socialists, even if it was not intended to be:
A man’s reach should exceed his grasp
Or what’s a Heaven for?

Plus:

We repealed the Industrial Relations Act. We passed into law the new Trade Union and Labour Relations Act. We put on the statute book an Act to protect employment. We passed an Act to safeguard health and safety at work. We have established the new Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service for both sides of industry to use.

And for Tony :

Let me turn to another aspect of our modern society: freedom. Democratic socialists emphasise that a fundamental aspect of freedom is the freedom of minorities within our society. Freedom from discrimination. There can be no equivocation, and there is none in the Labour Movement, on racial matters. We must oppose all forms of racial discrimination in this country and fight the messages of hatred which are designed to divide people from each other.

Regarding his views on the social contract as expressed in the speech:

This Conference decided ……that there is still no better way forward than the Social Contract to give life to this concept. That is as true for the employers as it is for the workers.

The Social Contract stands confirmed yesterday for the next three years because there is no other way, and it demands complete co-operation between the Party, the Government and the unions.

When I say there is no other way, that does not mean that it is going to be quick or easy. That has been promised before. It is neither……The route is long and hard. But the long march has at last begun… with the Social Contract and our industrial strategy as our guide.

Not the words of a man who was abandoning the social contract. The paragraph you quoted in the context of the speech was addressed more at domestic wage inflation undermining the UKs international competitiveness - Callaghan later confirmed this saying that part of his speech was widely misinterpreted.

Of course Callaghan abandoned Keynesianism and the Social Contract, that is what his words that I quoted mean. For final proof of that you only have to ask where the social contact is now. The answer is, abandoned. How many Labour leaders since Callaghan have promoted increased spending and full employment?

As for Keynesianism, that has been overwritten by Neo-Keynesians and New Keynesians who have decided Keynes was a monetarist all along which he sorta kinda was in his earlier years, but monetarism and neoliberalism are quite contrary to the public spending and full employment that the very heartbeat of later Keynesianism

 

[Spraggons Den]

Callaghan abandoned Keynesianism and the Social Contract

I think it would be a useful if you read his full speech to the 76 Conference that you quote from. His faith in the Social Contract is loud and clear as is his belief in the central role of Government in industrial policy.

It was the Unions who abandoned the Social Contract and the IMF who forced Callaghan and Healey towards monetarism.