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Racism, sexism etc in sport.

Furthermore, the so called ‘Battle of the Sexes’ in 1973, between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs, ended in King wiping the floor with Riggs in three straight sets. Admittedly, Riggs was 55 years old to King’s 29, but King did not seek the confrontation, arch-sexist Rigg did, in an endeavour to prove decisively the ‘natural sporting superiority’ of men over women.

203 ranked male wiped the floor with both Williams sisters back-to-back. Obviously only a bit of fun, but still.

https://www.tennisnow.com/Blogs/NET...n-Who-Beat-Venus-and-Serena-Back-to-Back.aspx
 
But it does. Whilst not seeking to minimise her exceptional skill as a player, she had an obvious genetic advantage over most other female players. The exception that disproves the rule.
No it doesn't. Not an exception that disproves the rule, just an exception al individual. She had a genetic advantage just as Mike Tyson had a genetic advantage over most men. What she did not have was the exposure to male hormones as a teen that would have made her bigger and stronger still. She is simply an exceptional woman just as MT is an exceptional man. Sport is full of them. The male puberty advantage isn't just my opinion, it's science fact appreciated by sports physiologist s across the world.
 
No it doesn't. Not an exception that disproves the rule, just an exception al individual. She had a genetic advantage just as Mike Tyson had a genetic advantage over most men. What she did not have was the exposure to male hormones as a teen that would have made her bigger and stronger still. She is simply an exceptional woman just as MT is an exceptional man. Sport is full of them. The male puberty advantage isn't just my opinion, it's science fact appreciated by sports physiologist s across the world.
Again you make sweeping and vague references to “sports physiologists across the world.” Fair enough, you’re posting on an internet forum, I’m not expecting a peer reviewed thesis. However, you present your argument as a broad appeal to ‘common sense’ and as though it is a self-evident truth. In fact, it is highly contested. Of course, in general, men tend to be bigger and stronger than women. It by no means follows that trans women have an enduring advantage over female athletes.

“So the question isn't 'do trans women have advantages?' - but instead, 'can trans women and women compete against one another in meaningful competition?' Truthfully, the answer isn't definitive yet.

Trans women can have disadvantages because their larger frames are now being powered by reduced muscle mass and reduced aerobic capacity, but that's not as obvious as the advantages of simply being bigger.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
 
Just to make sure we’re all clear:


The current men's 100m world record is 9.58 seconds, set by Jamaica's Usain Bolt in 2009, while the women's world record of 10.49 seconds set by American Florence Griffith-Joyner in 1988 remains unbroken.


High jump:

men Javier Sotomayor 2.45 m (8 ft 1⁄4 in) (1993)


Women Stefka Kostadinova 2.09 m ( 6 ft 101⁄4 in) (1987)


Long jump:

Men Mike Powell 8.95 m (29 ft 41⁄4 in) (1991)


Women Galina Chistyakova 7.52 m (24 ft 8 in) (1988)


Marathon:

Men 2:06:32, set at the 2008 Summer Olympics by Samuel Kamau Wanjiru


Women. 2:23:07, set at the 2012 Summer Olympics by Tiki Gelana

Some things we just have to accept. However, I doubt we would all be surprised if one day a female athlete turned up and bettered the men’s record or records. I can certainly perform worse than most women!
 
Again you make sweeping and vague references to “sports physiologists across the world.” Fair enough, you’re posting on an internet forum, I’m not expecting a peer reviewed thesis. However, you present your argument as a broad appeal to ‘common sense’ and as though it is a self-evident truth. In fact, it is highly contested. Of course, in general, men tend to be bigger and stronger than women. It by no means follows that trans women have an enduring advantage over female athletes.

“So the question isn't 'do trans women have advantages?' - but instead, 'can trans women and women compete against one another in meaningful competition?' Truthfully, the answer isn't definitive yet.

Trans women can have disadvantages because their larger frames are now being powered by reduced muscle mass and reduced aerobic capacity, but that's not as obvious as the advantages of simply being bigger.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
Sweeping vague statement s? Appeal to common sense? No to both. Science fact. I'm not saying any more on this, just google "male puberty sports advantage" and you'll get literally hundreds of peer reviewed papers. Read a few. That's all I have to say, there's no more to add.
 
It's not questionable, it's the biological fact of having gone through a male puberty. This is acknowledged by sports physiologist s to confer a biological advantage, when considered across a population.
Selecting an exceptional individual, such as Venus Williams, does not counter this. She is as you say, big and strong and extremely athletic, probably bigger and stronger than most men, despite having been born a girl and obviously then a female puberty. Had she been exposed to ma le hormones in puberty, which she wasn't, being a girl, she would have been bigger and stronger still.

The Williams sisters, although strong and athletic for women, have been thrashed by low-ranking men’s tennis players. Martina Navratilova, also a brilliant player in her day was beaten soundly by Jimmy Connors despite him only having one serve, not two, and her being allowed to use the tramlines.

Just as an example, the average man has 30% greater upper-body strength than the average woman. I do think it’s cruel to keep trying to pretend there’re no differences, even if it comes from a place of wanting to champion and support women athletes. It has the opposite effect in the end.
 
For me, women’s rugby is unwatchable. Not because women shouldn’t play rugby (indeed the England team have done extremely well and congrats to them) but their lack of relative strength and speed make it unexciting to watch IMHO. I’d rather watch the men’s varsity match.
 
The Williams sisters, although strong and athletic for women, have been thrashed by low-ranking men’s tennis players. Martina Navratilova, also a brilliant player in her day was beaten soundly by Jimmy Connors despite him only having one serve, not two, and her being allowed to use the tramlines.

Just as an example, the average man has 30% greater upper-body strength than the average woman. I do think it’s cruel to keep trying to pretend there’re no differences, even if it comes from a place of wanting to champion and support women athletes. It has the opposite effect in the end.
Quite. The differences are apparent and measured. Picking out an individual is meaningless. Most men are taller than most women. This is indisputable. However I can go outside and find a woman taller than me. This does not change the primary fact. Nobody says all men are taller than all women.
The debate about *how* transgender athletes can compete alongside non trans is a big one and complex. It varies by sport. Weightlifting or synchronised swimming or cycling, different considerations. For most of us it doesn't matter, my sporting performance is sufficiently modest that anybody, man or woman, trans or not, can perform comfortably at the same of a better level. But at the elite level, the debate is lengthy but it always opens with the science fact that men start out being *in general* bigger and stronger than most women and that the physical changes that are conveyed by a male puberty cannot all be reversed by later withdrawal of male hormones. I have wide shoulders and slim hips. This is laid down in my bones that grew in puberty, you can't undo that however many female hormones you give me and this is true for anybody who had a normal male puberty.I

Edit - the debate about meaningful inclusion is important because we want to include all people in sport. In an ideal world we'd create another class for trans athletes, but we don't have enough. We do this for the Paralympics where each sport has established the relative disadvantages of different disabilities.
 
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Are you on drugs? Thats an insane thing to write, it is brutally physically and mentally demanding.



The F1 threads have 3-4 old-man-bigot members who frequent it sadly. They don't contribute much, only the occasional few lines to denounce the very pronounced racism that is present in the sport.

https://www.hamiltoncommission.org/the-report

More often or not they are Max Verstappen fans, as he has quite a 'white privilege' following and his team was owned/created by a right wing fascist and they have had many examples of prejudice behaviour over the years.

This post eloquently illustrates how you have decided that any natural physical reality, any opinion, or nuance of opinion that does not perfectly fit your ideological prejudice can only be the fruit of bigotry, racism and right-wing fascism on the part of "old men" who "more often than not are Max Verstappen fans." You ask me if I am on drugs. No, I am not, and I am certain that I am thinking more clearly than you are (not that it is very difficult to do so.)
 
I’m curious about the sports where the male/female/other argument is not based on strength/stamina/etc. for example, as a keen sailor, I often wonder why we have differentiation at e.g. Olympic level. I know a lot of female sailors who will wipe the floor with most men, but have to sail in their own events, which are somehow considered inferior. Women are often lighter too, which can be a great advantage over the beefcakes.
They are starting to address that with mixed classes like 470, FX and Nacra but why bother at all?
 
I’m curious about the sports where the male/female/other argument is not based on strength/stamina/etc. for example, as a keen sailor, I often wonder why we have differentiation at e.g. Olympic level. I know a lot of female sailors who will wipe the floor with most men, but have to sail in their own events, which are somehow considered inferior. Women are often lighter too, which can be a great advantage over the beefcakes.
They are starting to address that with mixed classes like 470, FX and Nacra but why bother at all?

A good point! Less weight should be an advantage in terms of the overall weight of the boat, but a disadvantage when leaning out to hold it as vertical as possible. Perhaps this could be tackled with those water-filled vests, if they still use them.
 
This post eloquently illustrates how you have decided that any natural physical reality, any opinion, or nuance of opinion that does not perfectly fit your ideological prejudice can only be the fruit of bigotry, racism and right-wing fascism on the part of "old men" who "more often than not are Max Verstappen fans." You ask me if I am on drugs. No, I am not, and I am certain that I am thinking more clearly than you are (not that it is very difficult to do so.)

LMAO, that's why I posted the Hamilton commission report.

I wouldn't say F1 drivers needing superb physical and mental ability, beyond normal levels, to be part of an ideological prejudice, just science and stuff.

You do need to reanalyse my statements as you have grouped sentiments that are not wholly exclusive but form a pattern on this forum, while taking into account other postings and threads, utilising all available information to present a very accurate account of proceedings, on this forum.

As Lewis once said, 'old voices'.

MX fan by any chance or have you been on the Red Bulls and gotten your wings?
 
The fact that until a complaint was lodged with the BBC, on the list of past winners of Sports Personality of the Year, the only winner who didn’t have his title was Sir Lewis Hamilton.
 
Sweeping vague statement s? Appeal to common sense? No to both. Science fact. I'm not saying any more on this, just google "male puberty sports advantage" and you'll get literally hundreds of peer reviewed papers. Read a few. That's all I have to say, there's no more to add.
Or, contrary to gainsaying, Google those papers that contest your assumptions. Scientific positivism was discredited some time ago.
 
What more can I say?

english-idioms-hit-the-nail-on-the-head.jpg



id917932200

I love that the hammer has missed the nail, very suiting, well done!

 
Or, contrary to gainsaying, Google those papers that contest your assumptions. Scientific positivism was discredited some time ago.
I have. Not assumptions. Most men are bigger than most women. Science fact. Got a paper that disputes that?
 
This post eloquently illustrates how you have decided that any natural physical reality, any opinion, or nuance of opinion that does not perfectly fit your ideological prejudice can only be the fruit of bigotry, racism and right-wing fascism on the part of "old men" who "more often than not are Max Verstappen fans." You ask me if I am on drugs. No, I am not, and I am certain that I am thinking more clearly than you are (not that it is very difficult to do so.)

What more can I say?

english-idioms-hit-the-nail-on-the-head.jpg
 
I have. Not assumptions. Most men are bigger than most women. Science fact. Got a paper that disputes that?
Can you explain why that is relevant to a discussion on whether trans women athletes have an advantage over non trans athletes?
 


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