Finally got a dog, then?
I do allow for it. I’ve lived in Scotland though not in 2014. I’ve also lived in a number of other regions of the UK.Nope. As I have already explained: It means you may well have not seen the Tory assertions that may well have swayed the result. That in turn could explain why you fail to allow for it. As someone who lives in Scotland I can see both the 'Scottish' media and their 'UK' media - and can see how they differ.
That is understandable. When I lived in London before I migrated I had no idea that even 'popular' (sic) 'UK' tabloids often ran very different content in Scotland. So not surprising if - even if they are aware of this - people 'down south' don't know what the different content *is* in Scotland on occasion.
Similarly, I suspect most people in England, say, will generally watch 'BBC1' without looking for versions that differ in other parts of the UK. Let alone watch BBC Scotland.
Yup. It was a big deal at the time. And being taken out of the EU by voting in England remains a big deal.Agreed. But your lack of showing you understand, does.
Do you live in Scotland? If so, for how long?
I've kept explaining what *actually* happened here in terms of the propaganda put out by the Tories, and its effect upon me and others. The lack in your responses is the failute to realise this happened. Specifically:
The Tories *repeatedly* 'warned' during IndyRef that Scots Independence would mean Scotland would be ejected from the EU and not allowed back in. They threw up the problem Spain has with Catelonia as a reason why the EU would do this. Politically, it was a reasonable argument. Thus I know it affected my views, and via Scots media and talking to other here I know it affected other people as well.
Are you denying all of the above para?
it would be a rerun of Brexit, in which the leaving country voluntarily cut itself off from its largest market next door. We've seen how that has gone - does Scotland want the same experience, while waiting for the EU cavalry to arrive? (It won't happen overnight).
The decent way to proceed is to wait a decent amount of time (I would say 15 or even 20 years) for such a momentous choice. 5 would be seen as way too short in historical terms. You need another generation to have their say and the current politicians to have moved on somewhat too.
...voting in England and Wales.Yup. It was a big deal at the time. And being taken out of the EU by voting in England remains a big deal.
...markets in the UK.I can see where you are coming from but how would Scotland becoming independent "cut itself off" from markets in England? Is it not possible to trade across national borders? I am perhaps being naive and overly optimistic, but if two neighbouring, non EU, independent countries wished to trade with each other for the mutual benefit of both, why could they not make arrangements to do so?
Scotland leaving the UK is a rerun of brexit.Brexit was conducted in a rush, in bad faith and in a manner which produced "No Deal". Why rerun that way of doing things? Brexit was a backward-looking, sentimental, regressive, ideological act of self-harm. It could never have an economic, spiritual or political up-side for British people.
Independence for Scotland is motivated by a desire for a more progressive, inclusive, modern and representational democracy. It is a hopeful and forward-looking movement. I think that matters a lot.
How would Scotland pay for the border? How long is an acceptable wait for joining the EU?If an iScotland did wish and manage to re-join the EU (it won't happen overnight) then the border issue would become more complicated and troublesome, probably affecting trade negatively. Might there be ways to resolve this? On the "pro" side would be frictionless trade opening up with 27 other countries. That has to be worth something.
How long is an acceptable wait while being poorer? 50 years?Maybe a useful question is "Would an independent Scotland be investable?" (I think it would)
Yes, you’re biased. Scotland leaving the UK is based entirely on nationalism. Nothing else.I tend to see Scottish Unionists and Brexiteers having far more in common with each other than the YES movement and Brexiteers. Maybe I am biased though. Certainly the "energy" they give off at their unionist celebrations appears similar to me:
That and more - the electorate in Scotland can now see that the cycle of appalling Conservative governments with the occasional disappointing Labour one will never end. There's only one way to break out of this loop...I think SirKeir has done his bit too with his “I’ll tell you what you can and can’t have” approach to Scottish voters
...voting in England and Wales.
Yes, everybody knows about this already despite efforts to pretend only people in Scotland are aware.
In 2016, 1,661,191 Scots voted to remain in the EU while 1,018,322 voted to leave. Both very significant numbers from 3.9 million who could have voted. Why do you ignore the voice of over 1 million people in Scotland with chants of ‘Scotland voted to remain in the EU’? Yes, a majority voted to remain but just like the +16m across the UK who should not be ignored, why should +1m people in Scotland be ignored? Nationalists never utter a word about those people. It’s as though they don’t exist.
There is some interesting info and maps at the wiki link below for anyone genuinely interested in understanding things.
Source: Wiki
Amusing first paragraph. What has been established is your earlier assumption was nonsense and it's beyond you to simply apologise.Now we've established that you DID know that the Tories used being chucked out of the EU if the voted YES in IndyRef. The answer to your question hinges in some part on that fact.
Some people voted NO to IndyRef because they did not want to be made to leave the EU. Now they'd have to vote yes as a result of that threat being turned into actual ejection by those who made the threat. How many votes that altered we don't know. But it seems unlikely that it was zero.
Thus a referendum would help clarify this rather better that assuming it makes no difference that people were told a lie about EU membership.
Rather than argue about this, let people make a choice and we can see. if you are correct the outcome will be what you expect.
I do realise that it's somewhat putting the cart before the horse, and I don't know if it would even be possible, but would it not be wise for Scotland to start talking to the EU now about membership? Getting the ground prepared ahead of time, as it were. It seems to me that separating from its major trading partner with only a "some day" hope of rejoining the EU is asking for a disaster, as I've said before, a rerun of the disaster called Brexit. The EU knows that Scotland would like to join, but that's as far as it goes, or, at the moment, can possibly go. Ideally, it would be a switch from one union to the other from one day to the next. And it probably belongs in the realms of science-fiction.
I do realise that it's somewhat putting the cart before the horse, and I don't know if it would even be possible, but would it not be wise for Scotland to start talking to the EU now about membership?
I do realise that it's somewhat putting the cart before the horse, and I don't know if it would even be possible, but would it not be wise for Scotland to start talking to the EU now about membership? Getting the ground prepared ahead of time, as it were. It seems to me that separating from its major trading partner with only a "some day" hope of rejoining the EU is asking for a disaster, as I've said before, a rerun of the disaster called Brexit. The EU knows that Scotland would like to join, but that's as far as it goes, or, at the moment, can possibly go. Ideally, it would be a switch from one union to the other from one day to the next. And it probably belongs in the realms of science-fiction.