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Does analogue ultimately beat digital?

Two things could be at play there: mastering and preference for euphonic distortion or enhanced presentation.
Digital is potentially always better but in practice the mastering may make it worse-sounding.

My general finding from mere measurement/analysis is that:

LPs may have a different overall frequency response and level of dynamic adjustment to CD of the 'same music' (sic) Thus factors like how loud you play the result, how your replay kit alters the signal (e.g. non-flat response of LP cart, etc), the response patterns of the speakers you've 'preferred' to use, etc, may tend to make one format's example "sound better" to your personal taste than the other.

In brief, in terms of recorded content you may not be comparing like with like (because the people making those LPs/CDs *have* made them different) and your choice of setup and hearing preferences then make you like one rather than the other.

Gross differences often show up. e.g. CDs that show flat top clipping whereas LP may show high distortion of a different kind. Curously, some historically well regarded recordings may show such problems. Which may be why some in the recording biz seem obsessed with LOUDNESS to the point of heavy clipping, etc.

Alas, as time passes, techology gives ever more ways for producers to create 'new versions' that do more than just 'clean up' original limitations/flaws. And they then sell us yet another 'improved version' of the same old.
 
A complicated issue. Digital should of course technically be much better but as said before processing is everything.
My original 1985 Brother In Arms CD has always sounded dull and soft, while the LP is incisively bright.
Some Decca records are impossibly bright (and hissy) too.
Brother In Arms was one of the first albums to be recorded and mastered digitally. According to the wiki ..

The decision to move to digital recording came from Knopfler's constant striving for better sound quality. "One of the things that I totally respected about him," Dorfsman observed, "was his interest in technology as a means of improving his music. He was always willing to spend on high-quality equipment.”
 
Brother In Arms was one of the first albums to be recorded and mastered digitally. The decision to move to digital recording came from Knopfler's constant striving for better sound quality.

Do you think the sound quality is better than on their earlier albums? I don't.
 
Even a fairly cheap turntable usually sounds smooth and easy on the ear, perhaps to the point of being boring but the err on the safe side. Digital is the opposite. There are far more nasty sounding CD players than turntables. The reason is very simple. Unlike a turntable, digital distortion is not analogous to the music signal and grates on the ear more. A poor turntable might sound dull and uninteresting but poor digital is truly horrible.

Of course there are horrible turntables and lovely digital sources. That's not the point. It's the type of distortion they can produce that matters.


Which imperfections annoy me most may be different to the ones that annoy you most of course, but as a generalisation this looks right to my ear.

However, we do need to watch out for those generalisations and for confirmation biases and for prejudices built up over 40 years of listening mostly to cheaper CD players and turntables.

No too long ago (but before my LP12 got a Karousel or Lingo 4), I played CD and LP of a few albums to a friend while standing in front of the preamp. He is a very good conductor (not in UK) and a musician of no small skill, and almost infinitely better than me at understanding music and at critical listening. From college days, he 'knew' what LPs sounded like - scratches, jumps, hissing, rumbling to cover small detail and loose bass - and didn't understand why I had one. He has been firmly all-digital since 1985 but still 'knew' what LPs sound like.

I stood in front of the preamp and swapped things around. He was mid-way through pointing to specific areas of CD superiority on version 2 of album 1 (stereo image, precision in deep bass, lower sibilance and more realism on close-miked female vocals) and was just waiting for an example of 'no overhang as sudden sounds end' - when we got to the first surface click on that LP.

After some hours, we concluded that on some albums he still preferred CD and found it more realistic while I found some unrealistically hard and flat and others unnaturally smooth in treble. For most albums, if you ignored surface noise, we actually agreed which was better (usually a small gap), and it wasn't always the LP. Mostly, LP won on older recordings, but there were even a couple where the 'digitally remastered' LP was not ruined but actually more involving and open than the CD.

There were also several where (under firm challenge and with him doing the disguising this time) I had to admit that the CD was indeed less good than LP - but the stream from the NDX2/ XPSDR was at least as good as the LP - most (but not all) of the classical & jazz recordings after about 1990 fitted into that category. Messier still, my old Tres Hombres LP was clearly better than CD, but my pristine 180g replacement LP actually lost to my ear against CD if I couldn't see the preamp.

Typical digital imperfections still annoy my ear more than typical LP imperfections, if you see what I mean, and my best 20 or 30 listening experiences are all on LP. However, I have got a lot less black-and-white on LP versus CD in recent years.

As for Mr. Knopfler's output, my understanding is that he takes great care on the whole process and really works on the final version, which leads quickly to the digital world. I wouldn't assume that Brothers iIn Arms would sound better to my ear if it had been all analogue too. On the other hand, I'd rather listen to the first 2 albums - is that just because of how they are recorded or more to do with the music?

Finally, if the gap at the high-end were as black-and-white as some here seem to assume, wouldn't Linn going digital on the current phono stage make a Klimax-style LP12 sound like a CD player?
 
A complicated issue. Digital should of course technically be much better but as said before processing is everything.
My original 1985 Brother In Arms CD has always sounded dull and soft, while the LP is incisively bright.
Some Decca records are impossibly bright (and hissy) too.
I suspect the Decca thing might be down to the use of a proprietary EQ curve rather than RIAA, and most phono stages only apply RIAA so the EQ that comes out is out of whack.
 
I suspect the Decca thing might be down to the use of a proprietary EQ curve rather than RIAA, and most phono stages only apply RIAA so the EQ that comes out is out of whack.

I'd need to check, but I think Decca switched to RIAA long before CD arrived. However what any specific mastering was like for an LP dependened on the individuals who put together the tape that went to the lathe, and the person operating the lathe. Then possibly altered by any failings in the process of going from the cut laquer to the finally stamped-out LPs. Lots of stages involved that can make a big difference. As detailed in various old AES papers, etc,... but usually not mentioned to the buying public.

Making CDs was also difficult at first. But after a few years the stage from the final digital file for CD to actual CD was routine and cloned the data... of course that didn't stop 'engineers' and 'producers' from messing up before that stage.

... nor have modern 'high rez' files which can also show quite obvious failures - clipping, quantisation errors, etc, not to mention LOUDNESS-SELLS-OBSESSION by many production 'gurus'. (sigh)

You can find info on all these failings in examples analysed on my web pages, and elsewhere. They generally show up starkly when you look for them.

It ain't the tools in the box. Its the person who uses them.
 
Not going to get dragged into this one but a few comments about the wider context and indeed music in general.
Yes current music is optimised for the some what tinny modern systems, try playing a recent track in your system the overblown bass and mids sound crap and out of proportion but listen to same track on small speaker or in your car it will sound right.
Simply as ever the music is mixed for the end user the majority do not care about hifi.

Back to the question for the mainsteam at least the dab tuner in my car is more reliable and sounds richer and fuller so at the level yes I'd say digital is better.
But then not all digital is the same a poor quality feed sounds poor in a good set up, no matter how good the kit.
So really it's about price you can get most of the way with digital for not a lot and very little hassle or fuss. I would agree you can better that with a good turntable if you spend a bit more, but then as said you can max out digital sources cheaper than mega high end analogue.

Also I remember a good point being made about amps being voiced for anologue or digital and not always being interchangeable
 
No necessary. Digital has been perfect since 1983.
Just for the record my post was totally tongue in cheek and a reference to the network switch thread that is running and running......the smiley didn't appear tho. More seriously, I'm somewhat amazed that this thread started by a troll and debated so many times before is being taken at all seriously. But of course all of that holds true for the network switch thread. I admire the bravery of those that keep plugging away on the latter thread that switches make a difference against the reductionist arguments of the tech brigade. Personally I'd rather listen to music or tweak my own DACs. And my personal view for this thread? I've heard a £50k record deck pitched against a very decent DAC and the differences were smaller than you might think with no clear winner: it came down to mastering /recording for the different media. I certainly wouldn't invest megabucks in vinyl having moved away from vinyl because of disc imperfections in the 90s and am more than happy that my digital set up is a) hugely enjoyable and musical and b) provides access to a myriad of great quality music via streaming undreamt of only a few years ago.
 
Digital took over in 1983 when cd was introduced. Even before that major classical labels had started using digital almost without exception.

Despite the current vinyl fad 95% of current music sales is digital.
Not in my experience. The first CD players were not a nice listen, dry, harsh, sibilant and fatiguing compared to vinyl. I don't listen much to classical, but I appreciate the lack of crackles and pops in the quieter passages from CD was important to many in that era.
 
You think kids are streaming Hi-Fi from their phones today? Have you heard current pop music?

I sometimes think Hi-Fi nerds live in a bubble and have no idea what is happening in the real world.

I really hate having to explain jokes, but as a clue, I wasn't referring to kids.
 
The first CD players were not a nice listen, dry, harsh, sibilant and fatiguing compared to vinyl.
Not in my experience. I am not saying that no one can hear any differences between any cd players, but my Philips CD104 from 1984 does not sound dry harsh nor sibilant, not even when playing early cds of which I have plenty. Recently it has refused to play cds more often than not, but that is another problem. In any case the myth about bad sounding early digital is largely a myth.
 
Not going to get dragged into this one but a few comments about the wider context and indeed music in general.
Yes current music is optimised for the some what tinny modern systems, try playing a recent track in your system the overblown bass and mids sound crap and out of proportion but listen to same track on small speaker or in your car it will sound right.
Simply as ever the music is mixed for the end user the majority do not care about hifi.

Yes, lots of 'popular' music back in the 60s was balanced for listeners using a Dansette and/or portable radios. 'Classical' was more likely to assume the listener had a (for the time) 'good' system. But that might in some cases have meant a radiogram.
 
Not in my experience. The first CD players were not a nice listen, dry, harsh, sibilant and fatiguing compared to vinyl. I don't listen much to classical, but I appreciate the lack of crackles and pops in the quieter passages from CD was important to many in that era.

The reality for some years was that early ADCs and any 'digital' processing between the recording and the output being put onto Cd may well have messed up the digital processing. Again, you can find documented example on my webpages. Including, alas, ones from later decades when carelessness or cluelessness by thos involved would have been the factor.

*Some* early CDs were excellent. Others were not. Much like ever since... No different to LP in this respect.
 
Not in my experience. I am not saying that no one can hear any differences between any cd players, but my Philips CD104 from 1984 does not sound dry harsh nor sibilant, not even when playing early cds of which I have plenty. Recently it has refused to play cds more often than not, but that is another problem. In any case the myth about bad sounding early digital is largely a myth.

FWIW I was happy with a 1st Gen Marantz CD player (Philips chipset) for years. Albeit after a time I added a Toko 19kHz LPF to the output which seemed to help it a little. But that may simply have helped give the following preamp more headroom as it halved the output voltage level as well. And in later decaded preferred other DACs.
 


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