Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII
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Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
That you state as fact Labour won’t go through with its promises is what prevents any discussion, not that there is much to discuss about it. You have an opinion of Labour from a hard left position, other people take a less fundamental view and understand Labour can’t do anything until the party replaces the tories. Priority One is winning the next GE.
palindrome
Thru a hedge, backwards and forwards.
In terms of racism, I don't doubt it.
The way I'm approaching the appalling state of British politics/politicians is by recognising the Tories have taken the UK right to the cliff edge, ready to provide just a slight nudge to tip us over, ready to redirect the blame of the fallen on their victims over-indulgence and an endemic puff of flatulent wind.
If Labour win the next general election, we will be pulled back from the brink by the scruff of the neck and forced to the ground for a good kicking. But at least here we have a chance of standing up and kicking back.
It ain't pretty, and it's somewhat soul-destroying. But I'll take the kicking, over becoming a burnt sacrifice at the Tory altar of extreme and uncontrolled avarice and corruption.
John
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farfromthesun
pfm Member
So is the Tory Party. Where is the 3 part AJ series on that?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
It’s being aired immediately after their wildlife documentary about bears shitting in the woods.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
droodzilla
pfm Member
To be honest, this is infuriating, and verges on gaslighting.
What do you think many on the left did during the New Labour years? I wouldn't say I was on the left at the time, but I'm sure that many who would hung on in there, got behind the leader and campaigned for the party. In other words, they compromised. The Iraq war was a breaking point for some, but I continued to vote for Labour - it's just the way I was wired.
Cut to the Corbyn years and, LOL, no suckers, compromise only works one way! The right of the party undermined Corbyn before he was even elected leader and barely relented for the four years he led the party. Their behaviour in that period was cynical, dishonest and fundamentally wicked. Expecting bad people to do good things is a fool's errand.
So, instead of this moralising nonsense, why not ask yourself why a reasonable chap like me who has voted Labour all his life and done a fair bit of campaigning for the party would now rather poke my eyes out with a blunt stick than put a cross in the Labour box.
If Labour do decide to support PR I will vote for them next time. Not because I really want to, or believe that PR is a magic bullet, but because it will enable smaller parties to thrive and might give me something that's worth voting for in future.
If not, I'll give Labour a miss next time. And if they win without my vote and do some decent things with that power they crave so badly, I might return to the fold.
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droodzilla
pfm Member
100% correct. Rotten through and through.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
We all know the Labour right undermined Corbyn, how many times is that going to be repeated? It doesn’t excuse the Labour left inventing criticisms of the party and Starmer. That only undermines the party and helps the tories. Priority #1 should be to remove the tories, throwing a vote away on wasters like the Greens or the poodle party won’t help dislodge the tories.
Some need to forget about Labour, get on with setting up a hard left party and see what the electorate makes of it.
Some need to forget about Labour, get on with setting up a hard left party and see what the electorate makes of it.
sean99
pfm Member
If you live in a competitive constituency and do not vote tactically then you risk enabling more years of Tory destruction.
Tony L
Administrator
Surely the realisation PR will end the Tories time in power forever is all the magic bullet we need. PR kills Tories. They know this and will do absolutely everything in their power to fight it.
ciderglider
pfm Member
Not in Sweden and Italy it doesn't.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
Sweden’s Social-Democrats have been the largest party more or less continuously since the 1930s. They have generally* been in power (PM etc). PR has served them quite well. The Conservatives there just get to pick up some crumbs: a bit like Labour in Britain.
Italy… ma, Italy is different.
*over the period 1932-2022, there have only been 17 years when the SDs did not hold the PM position.
droodzilla
pfm Member
I've explained my position and I accept its downsides (as it happens I'm in a Lab/LD marginal).
That said, the framing in my previous post was unduly negative.
The positive framing is that the only way to influence Labour to be more progressive is to withold one's vote. For most disaffected Labour voters, that means voting Green, in the hope that the loss of potentially key voters in some seats pulls Labour to the left, just as UKIP pulled the Tories to the far-right.
It might be a slim hope but, from where I'm sitting, so is the idea that some of the most awful people in politics will develop a social conscience, and a sense of basic human decency, if they gain power.
droodzilla
pfm Member
I'm not sure it will but, even if it does, it's just the beginning of the revitalisation of democracy that is needed. Another would be the dissolution of the coalition currently known as the Labour Party. Add to that wholesale constitutional reform and overhaul of the media... etc. PR can be the start of that process but it's clearly not sufficient (and I'm not even sure it's strictly necessary but I'm willing to throw the dice on it).