advertisement


Linn LP12s – Fire away!

I have owned a few LP12s ranging from an old Valhalla ittok troika to a full Klimax lp12 se , if set up correctly they can sound very good , are they over priced ? Yes the engineering and quality is very poor for what they cost . I would say the Ekos se is a great tonearm but not even close to what an SME V can do, Linn's marketing is very good and know how to get you to part with your money on an annual basis . I can't fault the LP12's overall they are a very decent turntable but cost 3 times what they should . I would say that the phono stages linn make are among the worst I have heard for the money id always recommend changing that for something better which would probably also cost much less, getting of the Lp12 roundabout is the best thing I have ever done . Although if you are worried about losing on your investment the lp12 does retain it's value well if you buy a used one you'd have to be insane to buy one new. Currently using a Roksan 20 plus with reference psu and it outperforms any lp12 I have owned and I mean by a lot, far more musical costs less and works with sme tonearms unlike the lp12 which is a nightmare with heavy tonearms.

All of the many good turntables are made of compromises, whether they cost £1K or £20K, and it is great that you have worked your way to an option that suits you. For those who particularly favour clarity, speed and neutrality, the Xerxes was a great choice 25 years ago, and I can understand why you like it so much today - if I had to replace my LP12, I'd certainly audition Touraj's current Vertere design.

I find it harder to understand why you feel that the Klimax LP12 has such poor quality and engineering - which bits are you thinking of specifically?

I suspect that far more of us will agree on Linn phono stages, though not all of us have heard the Urika II, a very different beast from (say) my old Linto.

The comment on arms is also interesting and echoes what lot of people have said here. Plenty of people who regard a high-spec LP12 highly also (unsurprisingly) have a lot of respect for Rega and SME arms, with the SME V a legend for many, but very few believe that a modern Lp12 and either arm makes a good combination.

Could someone with better technical knowledge than me explain please?

Equally, for those who reckon these combinations can be made to work well, what is it the rest of us are missing?
 
I really like the Uphorik. I've bought or borrowed several other phono amps, but never found one that was indisputably better. The Esoteric E-03 was the only real competition with an advantage in mid and treble clarity, but somehow it seemed to pull the music apart a bit and was less fun. The result was a bit less like a performance and more like some kind of technical assessment. The difference in clarity was much less than that gained by switching to a certain tone-arm from the legacy arms discussed above.


I find the Uphorik gets me thinking about music, not bass, mid-range, treble, tone, air, ink and what-have-you. It gets out of the way.

Well, today's research popped up an interesting read of a rather good review on Wigwam. Not without faults but the cumulative parts of its sound signature make for one very enjoyable phono stage. Have you tried it on the balanced output?
 
I don't claim to be an engineer, but it doesn't take an engineer to see that when a stretchy belt like the Sondek's pulls at a weight like the platter which is supported by three springs which happily rock sideways, energy is going to be delivered into the elastic parts of this highly resonant elastic system rather than its ideal destination: precise platter rotation. It may work, just about, for listeners who don't expect very accurate pitch from an expensive deck, but why all the upgrades? At the root of the current top-spec Sondek is a design flaw which has always been there and has never been addressed, except by people like John R, Arthur K and the erstwhile purveyor of the Spoke. The low uptake of those upgrades and the continuing popularity of the Sondek is what suggests to me that speed instability may be the key selling point. Maybe it sounds good because of a design flaw.

Interesting you mentioned the Spoke, as it was reviewed by Hi-Fi World when I worked there. As standard, LP12s generally turned in highly respectable W&F figures (in fact, the LP12SE recorded some of the best we measured for belt drive turntables), but the addition of the Spokes completely ruined this - both W&F and speed stability were all over the place!

As was the sound quality, to be honest...
 
Too much to answer here really, so I’ll keep it simple. The LP12 is best thought of as a brand/platform rather than a single model given the massive amount of variables. It’s an extremely capable platform, but can be poor if the implementation is poor. Add to that, the fact that even a top end, perfectly set up deck won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, no one product suits everyone.

My advice to anyone new to the LP12 who has an interest, try and hear some examples within your budget… or even just buy something which you can flip without losing if you don’t like it (shopping around and looking at re-sale values of various combinations, and reading up on Peter Swain’s guides should help minimise the risk of you being left upside down on a deal).

@AnilS has just bought a nice vintage LP12 with a clean, solid Rega RB250 arm and new AT-VM95… I’m not disclosing what he paid, but having heard it, I think he’s done well. It sounds good even before a proper setup (which I will be performing for him). He won’t lose if he chooses to move it on… but I can’t see him bettering it for the money.

@linnfomaniac83 Simon now has my new old LP12. Thank you Simon for working some magic on it. ;)

I'm reading this thread with interest and wondering what I've let myself in for :p

Simon's fitting some fresh parts but having heard it unfettled, it sounds very nice.
I did compare it to 5 turntables I have (I know :rolleyes:), but the LP12 sounded the best, given the extreme advantage of a new cartridge.

Looking forward to the adventure but I'm hoping not to add any further enhancements, unless some has a clear lid spare. :D

Only minor gripe is it's only 45rpm but I only have 3 12" singles o_O
 
Can anyone point me to JohnR’s elastomer insole thingies, please ? I figure that if my blue belt is better than any Linn belts I have tried, then why not ? I don’t hear a problem with piano note waver especially but what if other things improve ? plus I have a very solid floor ( and skull ).
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
If youve had your deck set up by a competent technician fitting bobbins could potentially undo a lot of hard work.

If you havent had your deck set up by someone competent, why not?
 
ISTM, as you're advancing your theories of subchassis motion, you ought to attempt to measure it.

I've been experimenting with an encoder disc read from a pickup mounted to the arm board. But I only get 500 intervals per revolution and haven't got useful data yet. Other than a precise measure of average speed. More interesting perhaps might be to fit a DC motor and look at the current draw. You can easily see stylus drag, and how it varies across the side. Don't know yet if it shows signal level variations. If it does then this is evidence that the arm is applying a varying force to the subchassis and perhaps it's wobbling. But a lot is built on handwaving.

FWIW Technics direct drives wow under load by design. It's just not very much. If you apply a load and watch the strobe you will see the markings move with respect to the reference. When you remove the load it comes back. The average speed doesn't drop in relation to the load, as it would with an open loop DC motor. But obviously the effect is trivial with a stylus level of load.
 
It’s not impossible but it’s very unlikely.

I find putting a record onto the platter and playing it a much more reliable metric.

But you’re welcome to stick to the finger method..
 
What is it about the Stack audio subchassis that makes the cirkus manageable for you, compared to standard?

The Cirkus doesn't sound as soulless with it. It cleans the sound up but without killing the life. I have another deck with a pre-Cirkus bearing and sub-chassis but the Cirkus with the Stack sub-chassis is better in every way. I kinda hoped it wouldn't be! ;0) This isn't what gives you the recording tolerance though, that's the Rega arm.

Incidentally, the Stack Tenor sub-chassis is compatible with the pre-Cirkus bearing. Not many alloy sub-chassis are. It's also cheap! And you can use a standard Linn armboard with it, that's what I've got.

I've found that a 2mm shim works out about right for a Rega arm on an LP12. It's bang on for an Audio Technica cart and close enough for everything else. I wouldn't use an adjustable doffer as I think rigidity of the arm and good cable dressing are more important.

For the life of me I can't see why the Audiomods arm would be better than a top Rega. I imagine that most of the people who buy one are going from a cheaper Rega arm or another brand. Removing the paint from the arm tube gives an increase in clarity and openness so it has that advantage straight away, but so does an RB3000. And do we really think it will have better bearings than Rega can do? They've been developing this arm for forty years. So why would it be better? I just don't get it. And nailing a cheap micrometer to it, really? You compromise rigidity for what, so it looks trick? Na, not for me. Bet Rega think it's pretty funny too.
 
If youve had your deck set up by a competent technician fitting bobbins could potentially undo a lot of hard work.

If you havent had your deck set up by someone competent, why not?

Living where I do, the only person who has so much as touched my Linn is yours truly and I reckon set-up is mostly BS but if as Peter Cymbiosis says, he starts a set-up with about 15 springs to choose from plus all the different models of P-clips, screws and odds and sods, well, fair enough. What I can´t get on with after all these years is pulling downwards, not on the springs but on the grommets to liberate then from possible stress, which, en passant, I believe to be extremely important because they do move with time independently of the springs, and I often have to leave them as are because I just have no grip in my fingertips. So at my age I´m going to give the insoles a try. They sound right up my street even though I am unaware of any real problems with my set-up of what is, by today´s rates, a pretty low end level LP12.
 
If Fender brought out - well they probably have - the 25th iteration of the Telecaster - I'd still probably prefer the 1952 original. I liked the original LP12 very much, and do rather miss it. Like someone else on this discussion I ended up with an SME 20/3/V about 15 years ago and it hasn't needed a single service or anything since. If I was buying a Linn now I'd get the most basic brand new LP12 and fit an old Ittok or Naim Aro.
 
Yes, I totally agree. In fact I think the Ittok/Ekos are very good with complex music. It is more as you say, they work well on some records and not on others. I was thinking about this and was going to clarify it my next post.

I don't necessarily think it's as simple as records made at different times, just different recording types and qualities. For example heavily compressed music. This might be more typical of a certain time period but you can find records which don't sound good of any age. Clean, dynamic recordings will sound great but compressed, thin or bright ones can sound rubbish.

I had an Ittok for twenty years and have been using Rega arms for fifteen and it is something the arm is guilty of. Cartridges contribute, or help, but swapping the arm for a Rega went almost all of the way to solving it. And if the Rega arm is good enough, with little down side. Ittok bass is hard to beat!

I do love the look of the Ittok though, I think it's the best looking tonearm ever made, but the lack of serviceability would stop me using one today. I suppose they've had a good run but it is a shame that you can't get parts and hardly anyone works on them. I think the Ittok is one of the great arms.
Sorry for the delay to reply was busy the past few days.
Yes it’s a shame the Ittok can’t be serviced. Never ever had a problem with one though and I’ve had many examples.. With the Ekos mk1 the only trouble I had was the anti skate being too stiff.
Agreed on the Ittok bass. I’d probably miss it a bit too much if I permanently switched to any other arm.

It’s weird but I find the Ittok to be good on brighter and thin recordings. The Ekos maybe less good. The Ittok is a bit warmer and less forward and that helps. The issue I was talking about with different records form different era I thought was more down to the LP12 type itself. For thinner and harsher 70s and 80s recordings I find a Pre cirkus deck worked well, and for modern recordings that are fuller and not harsh a cirkus or later deck is better, as they can be too bloated and slow with a pre circus deck.
I’ve not really found that issue to be down to the arm, but I’d like to try the Rega or thé Roksan Tabriz one day.

Can you give me a few examples of compressed music on records? If so have a look and see if I have some of them and see how they sound with the Ittok. No worries if you can’t think of anything off the top of your head though.
 
The Cirkus doesn't sound as soulless with it. It cleans the sound up but without killing the life. I have another deck with a pre-Cirkus bearing and sub-chassis but the Cirkus with the Stack sub-chassis is better in every way. I kinda hoped it wouldn't be! ;0) This isn't what gives you the recording tolerance though, that's the Rega arm.

Incidentally, the Stack Tenor sub-chassis is compatible with the pre-Cirkus bearing. Not many alloy sub-chassis are. It's also cheap! And you can use a standard Linn armboard with it, that's what I've got.

I've found that a 2mm shim works out about right for a Rega arm on an LP12. It's bang on for an Audio Technica cart and close enough for everything else. I wouldn't use an adjustable doffer as I think rigidity of the arm and good cable dressing are more important.

For the life of me I can't see why the Audiomods arm would be better than a top Rega. I imagine that most of the people who buy one are going from a cheaper Rega arm or another brand. Removing the paint from the arm tube gives an increase in clarity and openness so it has that advantage straight away, but so does an RB3000. And do we really think it will have better bearings than Rega can do? They've been developing this arm for forty years. So why would it be better? I just don't get it. And nailing a cheap micrometer to it, really? You compromise rigidity for what, so it looks trick? Na, not for me. Bet Rega think it's pretty funny too.

The Audiomods arm did look quite bling with all the holes! I didn't think the sound was all that special but it was ok. Nothing bad.

That tenor subchassis is cheap. Thanks for the info. That’s defo worth a go then, as it can take the old armboard too. Did you try it with a pre cirkus bearing too or only cirkus?

I see re the shims. Thanks for the info. So I assume you set that height then just use VTA adjustments to dial in the SRA?
 
I never heard one.

I'm interested in how you used to measure wow and flutter. Earlier in this thread there was an interesting suggestion that the platter speed remains quite constant on Sondeks but the sub-chassis-arm moves around with the flow of signal strength. The famous Technics wow figure of 0.025% corresponds to a rotation of about a fifth of a millimetre at track one. I've seen it said that human threshold for audible wow is about ten times that, but I'm sure it varies from person to person.

If you use some sort of test tone on vinyl to measure w+f, does that test how the sub-chassis would respond to repeating periodic impulses such as a musical signal? It seems to me that despite the consensus that test tones are adequate, a thorough test of sub-chassis reaction might be aided by an interferometer.

Wow and flutter was measured by the time-honoured method of playing a 3150Hz test tone on a carefully centred copy of a test LP and analysing the result using a W&F meter or audio analyser. It's not perfect, I grant you, but it's been an industry standard for a long time.

There was some work done on dynamic W&F performance and recovery after an external stimulus back in the late 1970s. As I recall, Hi-Fi Choice in its A5 days used to set up the above test and then drop a 'dust bug' cleaning arm onto the record to observe how the platter speed was affected and how quickly it recovered. The results made interesting reading but it was then realised that this was in no way representative of a music signal or the type of resistance offered by a stylus in a groove, so it was pretty pointless. Certainly it quietly faded away not long afterwards.

Reading this sort of thing now, and the results it often gave, it seems to me that its main advantage was that it allowed the mags of the time to take the piss out of cheap direct drives and, in those days of "the holy LP12 is the one and only" that seemed to be the most important thing.
 
Proving stylus drag is easy. Just measure the power-off spin-down time of a non-belt drive deck (with brake disabled if it has one, e.g. Technics, Garrard etc) with: a) the arm cued (i.e. unloaded spin-down), b) a silent track on a test disk, and c) a heavily modulated record (e.g. loud 12” single). You will get three very different figures. How this translates to transient wow will depend on the torque and mass of the deck, but I’d put money on it being a thing outside of the real powerhouse direct drive or idlers.
 
I have owned LP12 for 43 years. I have followed every upgrade after listening. I have never regretted the upgrades. I still have a pre-cirkus LP12 as a souvenir. The pre-cirkus was interesting in its time; with cirkus and then Karoussel, LP 12 still sounds as musical and lively as ever with less coloration. One can always point to design flaws, however it plays great that way. I've listened to turntables like: Technics SP10 Mk 2, Garrard 401, Avid Diva, VPI Signature, Oracle Delphi, Clearaudio Master Innovation. Each one has its own personality, they are worthy of the reputation the music is excellent; however they do not make me regret listening to my Linn LP12, even more so with Karoussel and Kit Radikal 2 !
 


advertisement


Back
Top