advertisement


Anti Vibration Devices

How much to speakers actually vibrate?
If you have bookshelf speakers then place them on the same shelf as your turntable with no buffer, crank the volume up and let us know what happens. :)

The memories of creating a feedback howl between my TT and speakers as a 10-yr-old still haunt me... It wasn't even as if I had the speakers on the TT's shelf, they were floorstanders on a carpeted, suspended wooden floor. The TT was, however, on a flimsy, resonant metal table and I had the amp's loudness button engaged! :D
 
If you have bookshelf speakers then place them on the same shelf as your turntable with no buffer, crank the volume up and let us know what happens. :)

The memories of creating a feedback howl between my TT and speakers as a 10-yr-old still haunt me... It wasn't even as if I had the speakers on the TT's shelf, they were floorstanders on a carpeted, suspended wooden floor. The TT was, however, on a flimsy, resonant metal table and I had the amp's loudness button engaged! :D
Yes but this is irrelevant to the speakers themselves & any internal amplification (if active). I have my TT on a wall shelf.
 
Yes but this is irrelevant to the speakers themselves & any internal amplification (if active). I have my TT on a wall shelf.
I was using an extreme example to illustrate a point, but on the topic of the discussion I can only urge you to experiment with loudspeaker isolation for yourself and not take those who are dismissing, yet apparently haven't auditioned it for themselves, at their word.

I auditioned IsoAcoustics OREA pucks with an extremely sceptical mind and was genuinely surprised by the difference they made. And it wasn't all for the better, I should add. There were positives and negatives, but in my system the positives (more dynamic attack and sharper imaging) outweighed the negatives (a slightly leaner bottom end and a slightly shouty upper-midband).
 
I was using an extreme example to illustrate a point, but on the topic of the discussion I can only urge you to experiment with loudspeaker isolation for yourself and not take those who are dismissing, yet apparently haven't auditioned it for themselves, at their word.

I auditioned IsoAcoustics OREA pucks with an extremely sceptical mind and was genuinely surprised by the difference they made. And it wasn't all for the better, I should add. There were positives and negatives, but in my system the positives (more dynamic attack and sharper imaging) outweighed the negatives (a slightly leaner bottom end and a slightly shouty upper-midband).
Fair enough, I have active ATC’s, they are on spikes into cups. I won’t be trying them in all honesty.
 
It will depend on the speakers, the floor construction and much else besides but Gaia do something. Do you like what they do for you in your room with your speakers is a question for you to decide.
 
Big topic!

We have tried lots of isolation options in the last year - mostly low cost and easy to remove - in my room and system, and reached some conclusions. There are lots of threads on this and related topics for other views.

FWIW and with apologies for the length...

1. We hear hi-fis and rooms, not just hi-fis. Which boxes matters and what they sit on can make a difference, but do the room shape, the floor, the furnishings, the ceiling, how carefully you are listening to what and at what volume, what you expect to hear, the state of your mains supply and the local EM and perhaps Wifi environments, plus how tired you are. The list is endless and often not easy to translate from one room/ system/ person to another.

2. I have a bouncy floor, lots of Naim boxes and an LP12 (on the wall), and I am liberal with volume. For me, my ultra-heavy granite rack is VG - I am confident that a Fraim or equivalent would do less well, given my floor. I have tried boxes on floor (audibly bad), boxes on cheap Sound Org racks (apparently fine), and boxes on my rack (definitely better). Quite separately, I have also heard the same boxes in several different rooms.

3. Isolation options that we tried under Naim boxes included Naim cups-and-balls and clever rubbery feet plus wood, MDF, 2 sorts of glass and more granite.

On older 'olive' Naim boxes with big transformers, we all agreed that putting HRS Nimbus Assemblies (i.e. feet) between box and granite shelf gave a small uplift at higher volume. So did putting a hefty rubber/ metal weight on the same boxes - but even smaller IMHO. We heard no repeatable uplift doing the same with newer Naim boxes or Lingo PS. Everything else we tried was worse or made no difference in multiple sessions (as blind as I could do) with multiple listeners.

4. In another room, with a different shelf and different makes of electronics, the 'best' answer will presumably be different. Few with a firm floor and a good rack report gains from DIY or bought isolation extras (though not none) unless they are pretty purist and the system wildly expensive. However, quite a few seem to use butcher's blocks or isolation platforms with less purist racks and sideboards. It is possible that they are all deluded of course, but it seems unlikely.

5. Very few of us seem to have tried more than a few options in any room, so there is no exhaustive and easy to interpret database on this. That is a major problem when looking at isolation because: -
A. If the upgrades are not illusory, they will be small - unless something was far from ideal before (e.g. an old LP12 on a sideboard or something rattles).
B. It is easy to fool yourself and hard to do a useful blind test, and 'different' is not the same as 'better'.
C. Like cables, there is a lot more apparent science than actual science on show here, but also plenty of vigorous opinion.
D. Plugging and unplugging cleans connections, so the new version may well sound better.
E. You may have moved boxes so that you now have (say) big transformer and preamp/ source further apart, which may well sound better.
F. You may have taken a bit more care on cable-dressing than usual this time - it can matter.

6. You'll probably find more agreement on turntables. Suspended designs like LP12s are said to work best on a 'light and rigid' support with good reason, and extra layers of compliance (beyond what you need to stop the needle bouncing) usually make sound quality worse.

Most modern TTs are not suspended and are more forgiving than an LP12 of what is under them - they may be good with a fairly compliant/ bouncy support and/ or just sitting on top of a decent rigid rack. However, the best isolation for any non-massive TTs is very often a wall shelf - not because the top of a rack necessarily sounds worse (although it often does if being really picky) but because of doors slamming or heavy feet or buses passing or whatever.

7. CD players may fall into the same category as valve kit for different reasons - more sensitive than solid state to good isolation, but rarely dramatic. My old Naim CDS2 certainly sounds better on HRS feet on granite shelf that it does sitting directly on the shelf, and granite beats the old Sound Org and that beats the floor.

8. Speakers are toughest and I haven't even started experimentation yet. Without knowing more than I do about the most relevant modes of vibration and all the resonance numbers (and speed of sound in all the materials and so on) I know that I can't analyse what is going on, but I am instinctively suspicious of many claims of a universal upgrade to speakers in general. What energy is supposedly going where?

Take an easy question - why are my speakers on spikes?

I had Shahinian Compasses for years and liked that the company line was that the little rubber feet were best, no WOO needed. Then I heard spiked granite platforms for them (resting on £1 coins) and that was clearly better - mostly tighter bass and better stereo image.

My B&W 804s came with spikes or rubbery feet, so we put on the spikes. In all my fiddling about with isolation, I have yet to put on the rubber feet to see if (wth a vastly heavier speaker in a different place on the floor) that is better or worse today. I will try, honest!

After trying that, I could try Isoacoustics gadgets or cheaper rivals, but I would probably start with the sort of firm foam pads you see under studio monitors. However, with so little understanding of what we are trying to achieve or how, I suspect it would be a case of 'shooting in the dark'.

Which speakers on what floors have people found to benefit from which of the after-market isolation products? Which were rubbish?

Even those who aren't firm believers in 'The Wisdom Of Crowds' may be interested...
 
No change whatsoever in the FR.
Keith
Ignore the frequency response graph, the point of showing that is exactly the answer you gave that it does not alter the frequency response. Look at the vibration measurements, did you see anything?

EDIT: what the article says about the identical frequency response with Gaia v spikes "The testing concludes that there was no colorization when using the GAIA isolators. The decibel output is consistent between spikes and the GAIA’s through the tested frequencies ranging from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. One of the IsoAcoustics fundamental principles is to ensure sound accuracy and no colorization."
 
Ignore the frequency response graph, the point of showing that is exactly the answer you gave that it does not alter the frequency response. Look at the vibration measurements, did you see anything?

EDIT: what the article says about the identical frequency response with Gaia v spikes "The testing concludes that there was no colorization when using the GAIA isolators. The decibel output is consistent between spikes and the GAIA’s through the tested frequencies ranging from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. One of the IsoAcoustics fundamental principles is to ensure sound accuracy and no colorization."

You may struggle to persuade someone who has never seen an audible difference...

Can you explain more about what you hear the Gaias doing?
 
FR is the bit we actually hear, the question is always of audibility, does a change make an audible difference.
Keith
 
Ignore the frequency response graph, the point of showing that is exactly the answer you gave that it does not alter the frequency response. Look at the vibration measurements, did you see anything?

EDIT: what the article says about the identical frequency response with Gaia v spikes "The testing concludes that there was no colorization when using the GAIA isolators. The decibel output is consistent between spikes and the GAIA’s through the tested frequencies ranging from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. One of the IsoAcoustics fundamental principles is to ensure sound accuracy and no colorization."
Ah, but everything boils down to steady-state frequency response in the land of Purite Audio. :rolleyes:
 
I would probably start with the sort of firm foam pads you see under studio monitors.
IsoAcoustics do these, they do Pro pucks, and home stuff. The Gaia are the later and are nicer looking and fit with bolts into where your spikes would go. Inside they undoubtedly have the same "foam pads" as the Pro pucks. Pro stuff you can plonk down and don't look fancy for pro market, home stuff you bolt on and come in fancy boxes with lots of thread size options for home market. Priced accordingly. What they aren't is just some sort of foam. They restrict movement in some directions and allow it in others.
 
FR is the bit we actually hear, the question is always of audibility, does a change make an audible difference.
Keith
Please answer the question Keith, did you see the vibration measurement, what did you see?

It isn't as simple as you suggest. Think about it for a moment, really think, not just instant answers. If there is a measurable difference in vibration, what might that mean?
 
IsoAcoustics do these, they do Pro pucks, and home stuff. The Gaia are the later and are nicer looking and fit with bolts into where your spikes would go. Inside they undoubtedly have the same "foam pads" as the Pro pucks. Pro stuff you can plonk down and don't look fancy for pro market, home stuff you bolt on and come in fancy boxes with lots of thread size options for home market. Priced accordingly. What they aren't is just some sort of foam. They restrict movement in some directions and allow it in others.

Thanks. How do I tell in which ways I want them to allow movement? Don't I want speakers to be as immobile as possible and also want them to transfer as little energy as possible into making waves in my floor?
 
FR is the bit we actually hear, the question is always of audibility, does a change make an audible difference.
Keith
On a previous pair of speakers I made (I have always made my main speakers, apart from the Quad 2805s in 2019; they didn't work in my room) I suspended the MF/HF cabinets above the LF cabs on cords, The surprising effect was to clean up the bass! Which rather shows that what we call bass is in a large part, the higher frequencies.
 
There is a difference as there would be if you placed a weight on top of the speaker the question is always, can you hear the difference is it audible, in this case no because the Fr is unchanged.
Keith
 
You may struggle to persuade someone who has never seen an audible difference...

Can you explain more about what you hear the Gaias doing?
I will not persuade Keith of anything, I know that, I couldn't persuade him the transformers are under rated in the Soncoz SGD1 for UK mains voltages, but they demonstrably are.

I don't have them myself, I have heard them twice in demos but it is hard to know how much is down to the demo. I will not attempt to describe my memory of a demo from several years ago. Suffice to say I would be happy to say there is an audible difference in the setup I heard.
 
Last edited:
I don't blindly subscribe to such views derived from the design philosophy of certain speaker manufacturers such as ATC or Harbeth, or anyone on this forum for that matter. I usually form an opinion or judgment based on my own experience which I can share with other forum members later.

That is very obvious from your conclusions.
 


advertisement


Back
Top