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Linn LP12s – Fire away!

Been thinking about this and it’s probably pretty difficult to say exactly what caused certain issues without really extensive auditioning and different opinions. (we are taking abut the Classic Linn/Naim combo being good with simple music but falling apart a bit with more complex stuff)

I’ve personally always liked the Linn arms best and the Ittok is still my favourite overall as the best all rounder. It’s musical and big sounding but has enough detail and precision. Not the best by any means but enough. It’s similar but a bit less forward and is more natural sounding than the Ekos IMO (tried the Ekos mk1 twice and mk2 once, Not tried the SE yet)

I also tried the Aro (twice), Nima, and PU7 and they had some good ponts but
I preferred the Ittok (and Ekos) overall to all of those as the better all rounders. Now I haven’t tried a Rega on the LP12 yet but might do one day. I heard the Roksan Tabriz might work well too.

I would not personally describe the Aro as an all rounder compared to an Ittok or Ekos. I think the Linn arms are better all rounders. The Aro has far superior midrange purity and definition for sure, superior to the pivoted arms , but it’s got limited extension at both ends and a somewhat glassy sound that can get a bit clinical and tiresome. I found it horrific sounding on a cirkus LP12. I could only manage to listen to it on a Pre cirkus deck (many people agree with that), where the bigger midbass of the turntable filled out the lean lower end of the arm a bit and the sweeter precirkus top end of the deck helped the sound be less clinical and more musical. Tried the Aro twice. Same story each time although I chatted to Naim and they sent me a kit for the second one that is a kind of grease which is supposed to get rid of any air bubbles and is supposed to improve things, but I got rid of the arm before I tried it, unfortunately.

I know some people love the Aro but I’m not one of them. It’s a personal thing. Carts I tried were a Troika, Karma, Klyde, MC20 super and standard DL103. The Troika sounded best, so no surprises there.

I’ve still got a Nima and that’s not as pure sounding as the Aro in the mids but I prefer it overall. I personally think it’s a better all rounder. It sounds less constricted in the top end to me. I know some people prefer the Nima too whilst many others prefer the Aro.

I don’t find the LP12 with an Ittok or Ekos limited to a particular genre, and find it decent with complex material. I think it does a pretty good job with everything overall and I’ve found those arms to be the best compromise. That combo isn’t the very best on various genres but certainly good all round. For ultimate bass impact and dynamics for certain records a DD or idler deck is better for sure.

What I was talking with different spec LP12s was more to do with records from different eras. Digital 1980s records that sound thin and bright sound quite different to modern records and I prefer those on a pre cirkus deck.

With the older pre cirkus/Naim Combo, some of the issues might be down to the earlier Naim amps as you’ve suggested. There is the glaze you mention and I think they can emphasise some things in simple music that might make you like the sound more with that kind of simple material, and the same effect maybe starts to sound a bit unnatural and exaggerated with complex material?

A pre cirkus LP12 might not be quite as detailed with complex material as a cirkus or Karousel bearing LP12 with solid subchassis/armboard but it’s still quite decent in my experience. So I’d probably point the finger more at the earlier Naim amps rather than the Linn arms. I could be wrong though and as I say it’s difficult to tell without more testing and options.

I’ll try a Rega or a Roksan Tabriz one day and report back.

Ah just remembered that I did try out a tricked out Rega on an LP12 before, - one of the best Audiomods arms about 10 years ago. Good detail but I still found the LP12/Ittok or Ekos Combo much better all rounders and more to my liking. More weight to the sound but enough detail was retained. I also had a PU7 at the same time and found that had the most weight and scale of all of them but lacked the the detail and focus of the Linn arms, and it also sounded a bit too dark and bloated to me. I know others love the PU7. The one I had was an extremely early model so I suspect the later ones are better.

I had an Ittok, Ekos mk2, Audiomods and PU7 at the same time.

I had the Nima and Aros at different times (but each time had an Ittok to compare to).

Sold on the Audiomods and PU7 reasonably quickly. Stuck with the Ittok, although I have also lived with the Ekos mk1 before for quite a while and there isn’t that much between them.

That’s quite a journey!
 
Been thinking about this and it’s probably pretty difficult to say exactly what caused certain issues without really extensive auditioning and different opinions. (we are taking abut the Classic Linn/Naim combo being good with simple music but falling apart a bit with more complex stuff)

I’ve personally always liked the Linn arms best and the Ittok is still my favourite overall as the best all rounder. It’s musical and big sounding but has enough detail and precision. Not the best by any means but enough. It’s similar but a bit less forward and is more natural sounding than the Ekos IMO (tried the Ekos mk1 twice and mk2 once, Not tried the SE yet)

I also tried the Aro (twice), Nima, and PU7 and they had some good ponts but
I preferred the Ittok (and Ekos) overall to all of those as the better all rounders. Now I haven’t tried a Rega on the LP12 yet but might do one day. I heard the Roksan Tabriz might work well too.

I would not personally describe the Aro as an all rounder compared to an Ittok or Ekos. I think the Linn arms are better all rounders. The Aro has far superior midrange purity and definition for sure, superior to the pivoted arms , but it’s got limited extension at both ends and a somewhat glassy sound that can get a bit clinical and tiresome. I found it horrific sounding on a cirkus LP12. I could only manage to listen to it on a Pre cirkus deck (many people agree with that), where the bigger midbass of the turntable filled out the lean lower end of the arm a bit and the sweeter precirkus top end of the deck helped the sound be less clinical and more musical. Tried the Aro twice. Same story each time although I chatted to Naim and they sent me a kit for the second one that is a kind of grease which is supposed to get rid of any air bubbles and is supposed to improve things, but I got rid of the arm before I tried it, unfortunately.

I know some people love the Aro but I’m not one of them. It’s a personal thing. Carts I tried were a Troika, Karma, Klyde, MC20 super and standard DL103. The Troika sounded best, so no surprises there.

I’ve still got a Nima and that’s not as pure sounding as the Aro in the mids but I prefer it overall. I personally think it’s a better all rounder. It sounds less constricted in the top end to me. I know some people prefer the Nima too whilst many others prefer the Aro.

I don’t find the LP12 with an Ittok or Ekos limited to a particular genre, and find it decent with complex material. I think it does a pretty good job with everything overall and I’ve found those arms to be the best compromise. That combo isn’t the very best on various genres but certainly good all round. For ultimate bass impact and dynamics for certain records a DD or idler deck is better for sure.

What I was talking with different spec LP12s was more to do with records from different eras. Digital 1980s records that sound thin and bright sound quite different to modern records and I prefer those on a pre cirkus deck.

With the older pre cirkus/Naim Combo, some of the issues might be down to the earlier Naim amps as you’ve suggested. There is the glaze you mention and I think they can emphasise some things in simple music that might make you like the sound more with that kind of simple material, and the same effect maybe starts to sound a bit unnatural and exaggerated with complex material?

A pre cirkus LP12 might not be quite as detailed with complex material as a cirkus or Karousel bearing LP12 with solid subchassis/armboard but it’s still quite decent in my experience. So I’d probably point the finger more at the earlier Naim amps rather than the Linn arms. I could be wrong though and as I say it’s difficult to tell without more testing and options.

I’ll try a Rega or a Roksan Tabriz one day and report back.

Ah just remembered that I did try out a tricked out Rega on an LP12 before, - one of the best Audiomods arms about 10 years ago. Good detail but I still found the LP12/Ittok or Ekos Combo much better all rounders and more to my liking. More weight to the sound but enough detail was retained. I also had a PU7 at the same time and found that had the most weight and scale of all of them but lacked the the detail and focus of the Linn arms, and it also sounded a bit too dark and bloated to me. I know others love the PU7. The one I had was an extremely early model so I suspect the later ones are better.

I had an Ittok, Ekos mk2, Audiomods and PU7 at the same time.

I had the Nima and Aros at different times (but each time had an Ittok to compare to).

Sold on the Audiomods and PU7 reasonably quickly. Stuck with the Ittok, although I have also lived with the Ekos mk1 before for quite a while and there isn’t that much between them.

I have found that since I've been using my P10/Aura the music doesn't "fall apart" when things get complicates on my CB Naim gear. Simply stated I have found it's Not an issue with the Naim gear, it's an issue with the front end/source component.. What exactly is your Naim gear & has your Naim gear been modified, aftermarket "upgrades"?
 
I have found that since I've been using my P10/Aura the music doesn't "fall apart" when things get complicates on my CB Naim gear. Simply stated I have found it's Not an issue with the Naim gear, it's an issue with the front end/source component.. What exactly is your Naim gear & has your Naim gear been modified, aftermarket "upgrades"?
This is my Dad’s system. 32.5/Hicap/250 chrome bumper Naim kit. No mods. The front end is a LP12/Ittok/Karma pre cirkus.
To be fair I wasn’t the person that originally said about things falling apart. I’d personally say it does a little compared to other amps
but I find the Naim Kit fine in general. Sorry for that confusion. I’m just not convinced that the Linn arms would be a cause of things falling apart with complex material. It doesn’t in my experience so far, although I’ve not compared to a Rega arm yet.

My issue was more to do with turntables that can play vinyl from a range of different time periods. The Pre cirkus LP12 isn’t an all around for that. Too bloated with modern records. Great with thin sounding 80s material and it reduces nasty digital edge.


Now some electrostatic speakers (ESL57), and some electrostatic headphones (earlier Stax ones) are v good with simple material but seriously fall apart with more
Complex stuff IMO! You can improve by stacking and subs I guess though. I understand the more recent Quads are better for the this. Doubt any of them will never be good all rounders like Magnepan planars though.

I’d love to hear this massive
Soundlab electrostatics or similar. You need a big panel size to get enough bass extension.
 
I think so much is down to context and taste it's almost impossible to say definitively that one arm is the best. I can see your preference for one arm or another swinging depending on the spec of the deck it's on. For example I disliked the Cirkus bearing so much I removed it and went back to an old bearing but my current deck has a Cirkus and with the Stack sub-chassis it's good.

I don't know how representative of the Rega sound the Audiomods arm is, I've never set eyes on one. That will change soon as a friend is about to put one on a 401. Personally, I've never seen the point of them. I don't see why they would be better than a top Rega and I don't understand some of the design choices. I remember asking Johnnie (Audio Origami) about the bearing arrangement on them and he wasn't very complimentary. He said it's the only arm he won't work on.

I agree about the Aro. It's all about the midrange. I'd rather have an Ittok or Ekos too.

I do think it's possible to have one deck that gets good music out of any era of record, I have one just now. I was listening to Charlie Parker 'Yardbird' earlier and Joy Division straight after that. Yeah, they sound pretty different but they both sound 'right'. It's easy to get a turntable to do that. What is difficult is to get a high resolution turntable to do that. Years ago I made that kind of even-handedness a priority and chose components accordingly. One of the things that led to was Rega tonearms. The RB3000 works so well I don't need it to be any better. Can't see me changing it any time soon.

Yeah I had exactly the same experience with the cirkus with the thicker cirkus subchassis and standard armboard compared to pre cirkus.
I tried the cirkus three times and hated it each time and reversed the change quickly. I could never get along with it.

What is it about the Stack audio subchassis that makes the cirkus manageable for you, compared to standard?

The Audiomods I had was the micrometer version V and IIRC it was the top version. I too remember Johnnie saying that about the bearings. It had a detailed sound but was a bit too bright and lightweight for me with the cartridges I tried. The Linn arms had more weight and body to the sound. The early PU7 had even more of that but lost definition compared to the Linn arms, so I found the Linn arms to be the most well balanced by a long way.

Yes the Aro is indeed all about the (very pure) midrange from my experience too, although that Naim grease to get rid of air bubbles is supposed to improve extension. Not sure as I didn’t try it. Did anyone try doing that?

The Nima is not as pure in the midrange as the Aro but it has a nice sound that is less clinical than the Aro and still has more definition in the midrange than the Linn arms. It doesn’t have the dynamics or bass of the Linn arms though, and that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people I think, myself included. I’m willing to put up with a somewhat less well defined midrange of the Linn arms for the bass and dynamics, and the midrange is still good enough compared to other arms IMO.

I’d be interested to try the straight Rega arm after your comments. If it was less bright/less lightweight than the Audiomods but had the same nice definition it would be good. The midrange definition might top the Linn arms, although how it handled the bass etc would be an interesting comparison. I’ve already got 3 Rega armboards for the Nima (single and double sandwich MDF, and an older chipboard one. All original Linn ones. I like the sound of the chipboard one. Softer but sweeter sounding in the treble). They would be superfluous though if I went to a modern subchassis/armboard.

Do you use a variable VTA device or stacked shims for the Rega?

Maybe another move for me would be to try a cirkus or Karousel with a newer subchassis, as you’ve done. That might give more all around performance with records from different periods.
 
Here’s a newer entry level stock LP12 with Majik subchassis and A/C motor. Current models now include the Karousel bearing(not pictured here).

7po1.JPG
Much better John, but still no cigar given the price.
 
I’m just not convinced that the Linn arms would be a cause of things falling apart with complex material. It doesn’t in my experience... My issue was more to do with turntables that can play vinyl from a range of different time periods.

Yes, I totally agree. In fact I think the Ittok/Ekos are very good with complex music. It is more as you say, they work well on some records and not on others. I was thinking about this and was going to clarify it my next post.

I don't necessarily think it's as simple as records made at different times, just different recording types and qualities. For example heavily compressed music. This might be more typical of a certain time period but you can find records which don't sound good of any age. Clean, dynamic recordings will sound great but compressed, thin or bright ones can sound rubbish.

I had an Ittok for twenty years and have been using Rega arms for fifteen and it is something the arm is guilty of. Cartridges contribute, or help, but swapping the arm for a Rega went almost all of the way to solving it. And if the Rega arm is good enough, with little down side. Ittok bass is hard to beat!

I do love the look of the Ittok though, I think it's the best looking tonearm ever made, but the lack of serviceability would stop me using one today. I suppose they've had a good run but it is a shame that you can't get parts and hardly anyone works on them. I think the Ittok is one of the great arms.
 
Takes a third party to impress David!
I have three third party additions , a skale counterweight, mike P’s blue belt and the Stiletto plinth. Both the plinth and counterweight were demonstrated by my dealer and I felt they improved the sound so I purchased.

I also have a custom solid steel welded sound org table with 8mm aluminium top plate.

I’ve tried lots of other mods over the years , many (collaro mat, Tranquility) are terrible and mess things up.

The Stiletto was an uncomfortable purchase because it was very expensive but once you hear what it does it’s hard to be without it.
 
Now some electrostatic speakers (ESL57), and some electrostatic headphones (earlier Stax ones) are v good with simple material but seriously fall apart with more Complex stuff IMO!

Ha ha, totally agree again. I think the Quads are one of the most overrated speakers out there. If you listen to orchestral or female vocal all the time, fine. If not, you soon will be! When I've heard them I've always thought they sounded lovely, until you play some demanding music. Last time was just a few weeks ago. They've basically got one party trick that they're really good at and they're shite at everything else.
 
I have owned a few LP12s ranging from an old Valhalla ittok troika to a full Klimax lp12 se , if set up correctly they can sound very good , are they over priced ? Yes the engineering and quality is very poor for what they cost . I would say the Ekos se is a great tonearm but not even close to what an SME V can do, Linn's marketing is very good and know how to get you to part with your money on an annual basis . I can't fault the LP12's overall they are a very decent turntable but cost 3 times what they should . I would say that the phono stages linn make are among the worst I have heard for the money id always recommend changing that for something better which would probably also cost much less, getting of the Lp12 roundabout is the best thing I have ever done . Although if you are worried about losing on your investment the lp12 does retain it's value well if you buy a used one you'd have to be insane to buy one new. Currently using a Roksan 20 plus with reference psu and it outperforms any lp12 I have owned and I mean by a lot, far more musical costs less and works with sme tonearms unlike the lp12 which is a nightmare with heavy tonearms.
 
It's always nice to hear from someone whom has the wealth to own several iterations of the Sondek & alternative decks. Nice to hear their conclusions.

There was a time when I had the thought of purchasing an SME arm for the Sondek as I thought it so good but due to bad match (heavy) sadly had to go another route.
 
per-Sony-fied, post: 4797695, member: 7462" There was a time when I had the thought of purchasing an SME arm for the Sondek as I thought it so good but due to bad match (heavy) sadly had to go another route.

I was under the impression the the Ekos SE is actually heavier than the SME IV/V.
 
I was under the impression the the Ekos SE is actually heavier than the SME IV/V.

You can get a heavier arm to work on the LP12, it's just harder and personally, I think there is something better about the sound of lighter ones.
 
I have owned a few LP12s ranging from an old Valhalla ittok troika to a full Klimax lp12 se , if set up correctly they can sound very good , are they over priced ? Yes the engineering and quality is very poor for what they cost . I would say the Ekos se is a great tonearm but not even close to what an SME V can do, Linn's marketing is very good and know how to get you to part with your money on an annual basis . I can't fault the LP12's overall they are a very decent turntable but cost 3 times what they should . I would say that the phono stages linn make are among the worst I have heard for the money id always recommend changing that for something better which would probably also cost much less, getting of the Lp12 roundabout is the best thing I have ever done . Although if you are worried about losing on your investment the lp12 does retain it's value well if you buy a used one you'd have to be insane to buy one new. Currently using a Roksan 20 plus with reference psu and it outperforms any lp12 I have owned and I mean by a lot, far more musical costs less and works with sme tonearms unlike the lp12 which is a nightmare with heavy tonearms.

Have to agree on the Linn phono stages. The Linto was ok I guess but the Uphorik and Urika mk1 (especially) were not for me. So bleached and constrained…….I’ve owned all 3 btw.

I can see the point of Linn arms and they obviously work well on a Sondek but some of the most enjoyable music played on an LP12 that I have heard have been non-Linn arms….in particular the Grace 707, Funk FXR-2 and an ADC arm with a carbon arm tube from memory….
 
[QUOTE="per-Sony-fied, post: 4797695, member: 7462"

There was a time when I had the thought of purchasing an SME arm for the Sondek as I thought it so good but due to bad match (heavy) sadly had to go another route.

I was under the impression the the Ekos SE is actually heavier than the SME IV/V.[/QUOTE]
I was not aware of that. However that time was before the Ekos SE was born & more sensibly priced.
 


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