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Ukraine V

And what’s wrong with that? it means millions of Europeans get free Russian passports and their kids get to learn Russian at school just like their grandparents

And none of that imperialist Western bourgeois decadence, like food. :)

empty-grocery-store.jpg
 
Not only that, but, to make Russia feel 'safe', a buffer zone of states under Moscow's influence/control would also be needed. How far west and south would that zone need to extend to keep Putin from worry?

If he really is that bothered how about west from Moscow and south from Moscow?
 
Not sure. I think @Super Bigote was not offering a ready made solution as some seem to assume, more offering a suggestion that may, or may not work. I believe he said as much. I would guess that any solution would require a heavily policed border of some sort, but what sort, where and who polices it and who pays for it are all g going to be difficult questions that those on the ground will have to grapple with.

The question of what will Ukraine look like on the ground when this is over is one that seems to have been passed over. It seems highly likely that the US and the IMF will be heavily involved in reconstruction and where that has happened before, everywhere from Chile, to Iraq and including Sri Lanka after the tsunami, a programme of privatisation, deregulation and cuts to public services have followed and reconstruction undertaken in a way that is aimed at creating a financial environment to suit US commercial interests rather and the local population. The costs for the local populations and local business in these and many other cases have been significant both in financial terms and quality of life.

By then though, the baddie will have been defeated and everyone will have left the cinema, put a few coins in a Help Ukraine tin on the way out and will not worry if that money is going to build tourist hotels rather than rebuilding peoples homes
For the record, I hope that people who respond "not sure" to the idea of a new Iron Curtain never gain power in the West.
 
I ask you, if the Russians have to withdraw defeated from the Ukraine, what happens next?
When a country invaded by fascistic despot has been liberated it's usual for lots of celebration to commence.
Hopefully those guilty of war crimes will face justice, and Russia will pay the costs of rebuilding what it has destroyed.
 
When a country invaded by fascistic despot has been liberated it's usual for lots of celebration to commence.
Hopefully those guilty of war crimes will face justice, and Russia will pay the costs of rebuilding what it has destroyed.

That'll be great. So nothing else will happen and Russia will become a good global citizen and vassal of US imperialism? Ukraine will be secure? They won't nuke us?
 
For the record, I hope that people who respond "not sure" to the idea of a new Iron Curtain never gain power in the West.
How would you manage the border between Ukraine and Russia once this is over? What would it look like? Open border? Closed border? How closed?
 
That'll be great. So nothing else will happen and Russia will become a good global citizen and vassal of US imperialism? Ukraine will be secure? They won't nuke us?
You are free to appease and wring your hands. Other lifestyles are available.
 
How would you manage the border between Ukraine and Russia once this is over? What would it look like? Open border? Closed border? How closed?
That's for the two countries to decide based on the state of relations between them.

Why would you or I "manage" that? It's literally none of our business.

I think you live in the UK? You should have your hands full with the NI border in a post-Brexit world.
 
And what’s wrong with that? it means millions of Europeans get free Russian passports and their kids get to learn Russian at school just like their grandparents
Also, people trying to leave those countries would be shot, so fewer Eastern European immigrants. It's a win all round.
 
That's for the two countries to decide based on the state of relations between them.

Why would you or I "manage" that? It's literally none of our business.

I think you live in the UK? You should have your hands full with the NI border in a post-Brexit world.
You don’t want to answer, no problem
 
You don’t want to answer, no problem
There is no relevant answer that I can supply, because that is entirely not up to me. My guess is while Putin is in power the border will be largely closed and militarized, like the FRG/GDR border of old or NK/SK DMZ now. If/when Russia chooses different leadership and path, that will probably change, but that's for the two countries to decide.

Unlike sending weapons to Ukraine - as a citizen of my country I should and do have a firm position - because that is something that is at least theoretically involves my voice.
 
Obviously you have ducked the question. Why is that? Are you afraid?


Your questions imply you are afraid. I tend not to answer flawed or pointless questions.

To your three -
First - Loaded to 'have you stopped bashing the bishop?' level.
Second - It seems likely a liberated Ukraine will be somewhat securer.
Third - I'll wake my crystal ball from standby and report back in due course.
 
There is no relevant answer that I can supply, because that is entirely not up to me. My guess is while Putin is in power the border will be largely closed and militarized, like the FRG/GDR border of old or NK/SK DMZ now. If/when Russia chooses different leadership and path, that will probably change, but that's for the two countries to decide.

Unlike sending weapons to Ukraine - as a citizen of my country I should and do have a firm position - because that is something that is at least theoretically involves my voice.

Thank you for a considered response. I agree there will have to be some sort of border and also agree that what that will look like cannot be answered here and now. Not sure why you objected to describing that border as a sort of iron curtain though, except that this time it might the West putting it up because this time it’s us that feels threatened. How we manage that feeling of threat will be critical going forward.

Not sure your or my voice is going to influence the sending of arms to Ukraine. I was a little alarmed at the number of posts at the start of this thread that called for use of nuclear weapons, which was madness writ large but seemed to pass with a slight murmur of approval. Maybe it didn’t, but there was a silence. You say you have a firm position, mine is rather more flexible because I feel a nuclear war should be avoided. If not at all costs, then with a bloody good appraisal of what those costs will be
 
Thank you for a considered response. I agree there will have to be some sort of border and also agree that what that will look like cannot be answered here and now. Not sure why you objected to describing that border as a sort of iron curtain though, except that this time it might the West putting it up because this time it’s us that feels threatened. How we manage that feeling of threat will be critical going forward.

Not sure your or my voice is going to influence the sending of arms to Ukraine. I was a little alarmed at the number of posts at the start of this thread that called for use of nuclear weapons, which was madness writ large but seemed to pass with a slight murmur of approval. Maybe it didn’t, but there was a silence. You say you have a firm position, mine is rather more flexible because I feel a nuclear war should be avoided. If not at all costs, then with a bloody good appraisal of what those costs will be
Yes, countries have borders, with ease of transit dependent on relationships.

Nuclear war should be avoided, which is why NATO isn't sending troops to Ukraine and they have ~two dozen HIMARS instead of five dozen.
 


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