advertisement


It's official. Public schools breed fascists

This is 80 years ago, times have changed somewhat.

Could it explain why UK public schools are now so full of foreign children? I doubt it.

Pity that the press chooses to demonise one of our significant export earners respected across the world while we struggle to find employees with basic three Rs.
 
dweezil said:
This is 80 years ago, times have changed somewhat.

Could it explain why UK public schools are now so full of foreign children? I doubt it.

Pity that the press chooses to demonise one of our significant export earners respected across the world while we struggle to find employees with basic three Rs.
Click to expand...
The problems in our education system are down to government underfunding
 
dweezil said:
This is 80 years ago, times have changed somewhat.

Could it explain why UK public schools are now so full of foreign children? I doubt it.

Pity that the press chooses to demonise one of our significant export earners respected across the world while we struggle to find employees with basic three Rs.
Click to expand...

ks.234 said:
The problems in our education system are down to government underfunding
Click to expand...
And will continue to be underfunded so long as the privileged can obtain a high standard of education for their own, and exclude the hoi polloi.

[Disclosure: I went to a fee-paying school, got there on merit and my fees were paid by the LEA. I have no problem with that sort of system, indeed I'd prefer that all public schools were required to operate that way].
 
A couple of things strike me from that article

First,
“The sheer amount of school exchanges is eye-opening. Between 1935 and 1938 the Oranienstein Napola, for example, took part in exchanges with Westminster, St Paul’s, Tonbridge, Dauntsey’s and Bingley school in Yorkshire. It entertained headmasters and exchange teachers from Shrewsbury, Dauntsey’s and Bolton. There were also sport tournaments with Eton, Harrow, Westminster, Winchester, Shrewsbury, Bradfield and Bryanston.”
​
These exchanges were going on well after the Nazi Party had revealed it’s true colours. These exchanges reveal the extent of admiration for the Nazi Party amongst our social elites at the time, rather than being confined to a few nutty royals, such admiration was widespread.

Second
“Heissmeyer believed that “after such trips, the young man will see Germany with new eyes; he will return rich in experiences; his horizons will be broadened … he will detect weaknesses at home which he must help to remedy. He will learn to love his fatherland more deeply.”

He also saw the largely independent role of the private school headmaster as an embodiment of the “Führer-principle”
​
More than mere admiration, our elites were engaged in emulation.

The question is, how much, if at all, has this attitude changed?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
And will continue to be underfunded so long as the privileged can obtain a high standard of education for their own, and exclude the hoi polloi.

[Disclosure: I went to a fee-paying school, got there on merit and my fees were paid by the LEA. I have no problem with that sort of system, indeed I'd prefer that all public schools were required to operate that way].
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree. Personally I would not support banning private schools. I do support removing their charitable status which is unsustainable, but I would much rather see state schools improved to a standard that makes fee paying schools redundant.

I do have a problem with LEA’s subsidising Private Schools, as such funding has to come out of an already rather constrained budget but I know of people who have won scholarships for their kids, and good luck to them, but they have been fairly middle class with the knowledge to tap into that funding. On the other hand I have taught several kids who have been kicked out of fee paying schools for their behaviour, which illustrates in bold type how private schools are not fit models for educating the broader population
 
ks.234 said:
Yes, I agree. Personally I would not support banning private schools. I do support removing their charitable status which is unsustainable, but I would much rather see state schools improved to a standard that makes fee paying schools redundant.

I do have a problem with LEA’s subsidising Private Schools, as such funding has to come out of an already rather constrained budget but I know of people who have won scholarships for their kids, and good luck to them, but they have been fairly middle class with the knowledge to tap into that funding. On the other hand I have taught several kids who have been kicked out of fee paying schools for their behaviour, which illustrates in bold type how private schools are not fit models for educating the broader population
Click to expand...
I think we broadly agree. Alternatively, any charitable status has to be on the basis that >50% of pupils receive scholarships from the charity, and some sort of 'reverse means-test' to exclude scholarships from those whose parents can well afford the fees regardless (Boris, I'm looking at you...).

The school I went to isn't mentioned in that report (phew!) and I'd have been surprised if it had, as the whole school ethos is rather different to your typical public school which seems to be predicated on preserving and enabling privilege, not educating the deserving, regardless of social status. That was a founding principle of MGS and remains central to its ethos. Its approach has probably coloured my view, but I still regard it, and those of a similar ethos, as an overall force for good. I completely agree, though, that the first objective has to be making a good education something everybody has access to. I think the problems are more social than educational, however, and you don't fix those by fixing the schools, rather you need to address the social issues at source.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I think we broadly agree. Alternatively, any charitable status has to be on the basis that >50% of pupils receive scholarships from the charity, and some sort of 'reverse means-test' to exclude scholarships from those whose parents can well afford the fees regardless (Boris, I'm looking at you...).

The school I went to isn't mentioned in that report (phew!) and I'd have been surprised if it had, as the whole school ethos is rather different to your typical public school which seems to be predicated on preserving and enabling privilege, not educating the deserving, regardless of social status. That was a founding principle of MGS and remains central to its ethos. Its approach has probably coloured my view, but I still regard it, and those of a similar ethos, as an overall force for good. I completely agree, though, that the first objective has to be making a good education something everybody has access to. I think the problems are more social than educational, however, and you don't fix those by fixing the schools, rather you need to address the social issues at source.
Click to expand...
I would agree except that an education system has to deal with the existing society and it’s existing problems. Our present system hives off social problems and dumps them into schools less favoured by the wider system. Such problems should be shared equally and dealt with collectively, rather than ghettoised and scapegoated.

Anyway, that’s all a distraction from the main point of this thread which is about Private schools and their emphasis on tradition. If that tradition has it’s roots in a sympathy/empathy for fascism, how much is that tradition informing our politics today given that such traditions are over represented in our parliament as it is in the present?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
[Disclosure: I went to a fee-paying school, got there on merit and my fees were paid by the LEA. I have no problem with that sort of system, indeed I'd prefer that all public schools were required to operate that way].
Click to expand...

I had the same experience - reduced fees (paid by my parents though) based on entrance exam. I used to think that merit based scholarships were OK, but my experience raising a learning disabled child has taught me that this is not the case.
Your and my merit could just as easily be called luck. Lucky genes. Lucky parents. Lucky location.

These days I struggle to see how rewarding intelligence is any different from rewarding height or physical attractiveness - none of us got to choose.

I don't know the per pupil spending in the UK, but here in Massachusetts it's public information. Around $15k-20k per pupil per annum:

https://profiles.doe.mass.edu/statereport/ppx.aspx

Maybe 10% of that is due to exorbitant health insurance costs, but it gives you a rough idea. Massachusetts has the highest performing schools in the US, and as a state ranks up near Singapore, Finland and the like. We were very pleased with the K-12 education our daughter received - it was a major factor in returning to Massachusetts from the UK in 2016. The (highly ofsted rated) school she was in near Cambridge UK just didn't compare in several important ways.
 
sean99 said:
I had the same experience - reduced fees (paid by my parents though) based on entrance exam. I used to think that merit based scholarships were OK, but my experience raising a learning disabled child has taught me that this is not the case.
Your and my merit could just as easily be called luck. Lucky genes. Lucky parents. Lucky location.

These days I struggle to see how rewarding intelligence is any different from rewarding height or physical attractiveness - none of us got to choose.

I don't know the per pupil spending in the UK, but here in Massachusetts it's public information. Around $15k-20k per pupil per annum:

https://profiles.doe.mass.edu/statereport/ppx.aspx

Maybe 10% of that is due to exorbitant health insurance costs, but it gives you a rough idea. Massachusetts has the highest performing schools in the US, and as a state ranks up near Singapore, Finland and the like. We were very pleased with the K-12 education our daughter received - it was a major factor in returning to Massachusetts from the UK in 2016. The (highly ofsted rated) school she was in near Cambridge UK just didn't compare in several important ways.
Click to expand...
Per pupil spending in the UK is being reduced to the same level as over a decade ago https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/sep/02/per-pupil-spending-in-english-schools-to-fall-to-under-2009-10-levels-if which on it’s own is a damning indictment of current education policy.

But even more than that, your story highlights the moral need for an inclusive education system, rather than the system that we have now which rewards exclusion. As well as the moral imperative of inclusion rather than exclusion, the exclusive education system we have, if the article at the top is anything to go by, apart from all it’s other inequities, actually breeds fascism.
 
ks.234 said:
Per pupil spending in the UK is being reduced to the same level as over a decade ago https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/sep/02/per-pupil-spending-in-english-schools-to-fall-to-under-2009-10-levels-if which on it’s own is a damning indictment of current education policy.

But even more than that, your story highlights the moral need for an inclusive education system, rather than the system that we have now which rewards exclusion. As well as the moral imperative of inclusion rather than exclusion, the exclusive education system we have, if the article at the top is anything to go by, apart from all it’s other inequities, actually breeds fascism.
Click to expand...

Agree. From your link:
"Total spending per pupil in England was just over £6,500 in the latest complete year of data in 2019-20, a fall of 9% in real terms compared with its high point of £7,200 in 2009-10"
Compared to $15-20k PA in MA - knock off 10% for inflated healthcare costs and you're still left with at least $13.5k here, compared to around $8500 in the UK. It's very worrying for the future of the UK.
 
There’s a private school at the top of my road, just four or five minutes walk away. It does not appear to have added much to my house value. FWIW my late mother used to teach in a small low-profile one for a while. The only one I’ve ever set foot in is Charterhouse, I went to do a spec for a site-wide network back in the ‘90s, but didn’t get the contract. Quite an odd place.

PS I’m not sure what I think of them beyond firmly believing that (like religion) they should not be tax-exempt. I’m fundamentally anti-authoritarian and believe people should have the right to do what the hell they like with their money. I’d far prefer to see state education raised to the level where they offered no advantage. There is clearly an issue with an endless avalanche of shit flowing from Eton via the vile class warrior Bullingdon Club to the Conservative front bench, but I don’t think that negates the fundamental concept of educational choice. They absolutely need to pay their tax though.
 
Tony L said:
There’s a private school at the top of my road, just four or five minutes walk away. It does not appear to have added much to my house value
Click to expand...
Was it there before you moved in?
Personally the more variety the better in my view. If anyone, usually the government, can get a stranglehold on education, it’s a society painted in the same shade of grey. Abuse there will be but it can be managed.
 
ks.234 said:
I have taught several kids who have been kicked out of fee paying schools for their behaviour, which illustrates in bold type how private schools are not fit models for educating the broader population
Click to expand...

If I was paying £40K+ a year on school fees, I’d want unruly, disruptive kids expelled.
 
Tony L said:
PS I’m not sure what I think of them beyond firmly believing that (like religion) they should not be tax-exempt. I’m fundamentally anti-authoritarian and believe people should have the right to do what the hell they like with their money. I’d far prefer to see state education raised to the level where they offered no advantage. There is clearly an issue with an endless avalanche of shit flowing from Eton via the vile class warrior Bullingdon Club to the Conservative front bench, but I don’t think that negates the fundamental concept of educational choice. They absolutely need to pay their tax though.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Stop the state subsidising them, and invest more in the state school system (but that will cost more than savings in tax exemption of course). Once we get to similar class sizes and the facilities are improved, sensible rich people will choose to spend their cash on holidays instead. The private schools will end up having to charge more for the same service. Maybe that will cause them to die out.
Yes, I believe in personal choice, but right now, our state educational system is suffering for it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top