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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XV

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Minio

Kind of Sort of Not really...
The government should have kept freedom of movement.
It would not have pleased the Farages of this world but would have eased the supply line shock we are currently experiencing in a lot of sectors.
For many, Brexit was intended as a warning shot to Brussels. Not a serious intention to hang ourselves. It was a bit like voting for industrial action when the biggest losers will be those who voted (ie in their pay packets) should they go ahead with it.
Funnily enough the last vote of that type I was involved in, resulted in no action as it would not have been legal; even though the results of the ballot were in favour of industrial action.
 
We have a very responsible meeja that is in no way creating the problem it is reporting in order to gain more clicks.

Oh no. As if.

It's all very responsible.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-leaves-Britons-claiming-unable-buy-food.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shelves-empty-across-uk-millions-25177252

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16373968/supermarket-shelves-empty-stockpiling-essentials/

I predict headlines about 'NO FOOD FOR SALE ANYWHERE IN THE UK' when the Great Xmas Food Panic kicks in. eBay will be awash with backed beans for £20 a tin.
 
We have a very responsible meeja that is in no way creating the problem it is reporting in order to gain more clicks.

Oh no. As if.

It's all very responsible.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-leaves-Britons-claiming-unable-buy-food.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shelves-empty-across-uk-millions-25177252

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16373968/supermarket-shelves-empty-stockpiling-essentials/

I predict headlines about 'NO FOOD FOR SALE ANYWHERE IN THE UK' when the Great Xmas Food Panic kicks in. eBay will be awash with backed beans for £20 a tin.
Link 1: photo, black man with large quantity of bog roll in trolley. very DM

Link2: Al Zahawi announces “skills boot amp” to get hgv drivers in the road. Very “call the army in” / bring back national conscription for young layabouts.

Link 3: curiously more demographically/ statistically appropriate pic- thick white people hoarding bog roll and bottled water. Are they expecting epidemic dysentery from reading too much conspiracy crap on Facebook?
 
In other news, EU tearing itself apart over sausage leading to- Private Francois takes the EU surrender,


Brexit LIVE: EU tearing itself apart as sausage wars move masks internal split
THE bitter disputes over the Northern Ireland Protocol and fishing access to UK waters conceal deep divisions within the European Union, a Brexiteer has claimed.
By OLIVER PRITCHARD-JONES
22:01, Sat, Oct 9, 2021 | UPDATED: 22:02, Sat, Oct 9, 2021


Brexit: Brussels surrenders to Britain! Lord Frost 'vindicated' as bloc finally caves
BRUSSELS has backed down over blocking the sale of British sausages in Northern Ireland following Brexit.
 
Many years from now English children will ask their Grandparents what they did during the Great Sausage War of 2021.
 
Not quite though, because the common tack - among people angry about Brexit - is to imply that in Europe things are always doing so much better, when they really aren't.

I can tell you, I am angry as f#ck about Brexit, it has left me in a position where I have no voting rights in the UK or NL. I think it was a shambles, but this will not make me think the EU is a fine institution because it isn't. Which is why I do not fall into line with those people who see all the genuine disasters of Brexit and then jump to the conclusion that the EU is somehow comparative luxury. The misery of the UK is entirely home-grown and was in force all the time the UK was an EU member. Much more than Greece's misery because they really were handicapped monetarily and in terms of clout.
I've never said that, or believed that, the EU was perfect. However the benefits of being a member outweighed the costs and demerits. We are now faced with all the disadvantages of the EU as our biggest trading partner, plus all the disadvantages of going it alone and being outside the SM, CU, etc, and no ability to change either.
 
You can clarify matters very quickly - and improve your mood - by confirming whether you supported Putin's annexation of Crimea or found solace in the EU's response. A 'Phone a friend' lifeline is available.

I should know better than to indulge you, as it seems only to feed your vindictive spite, but I see it has also fed that of the other 'usual suspect' too. I asked you earlier what had made you pose the question, as its only logical basis seemed to me to be puerile, deliberately inflammatory, or simply ignorant. So indulge you I will, at my peril no doubt. No, of course I didn't support Putin's annexation of Crimea.

I have no idea what you mean by 'found solace in the EU' s response' either. The EU openly stirred up trouble in the Ukraine as part of its drive to bring the country into its regulatory and cheap labour orbit, led by its rabble-rouser in chief, Guy Verhofsadt. Needless to say our Guy, who has an expensive Aston Martin habit to feed, had his fingers in one or two tasty commercial pies in the Ukraine, much as he had done during the EU's smashing up of Greece. It is not defending Putin, for Putin is what he is, to say that Russia's behaviour was a predictably opportunistic response to the EU's inept meddling.
 
That's a Brexiteer narrative. The referendum wasn't a question about whether the EU was beyond reproach - the question before the UK people was whether the UK was better off inside the EU or out.

To really decide it was, you would have to believe that the UK was well prepared and ready to be suddenly isolated from it's biggest market and closest trading partners. Instead, we got an emotionally charged set of protests, part anti UK government austerity, part anti-immigration and part perverse zero sum accounting with a lack of appreciation of what EU contributions actually buy you.

I think there's merit in this. The question for me was always about 'whether the EU was beyond reproach', weasel words though they are, which usually lead to a diatribe about how wonderful the EU really is. The EU is so far beyond reproach as to leave mere reproach a dot in the rear view mirror.

The questions that we should have been, and should continue to be, asking ourselves I have posited here before, but should be repeated;

Is the EU a good thing?

Will the UK be worse off for leaving the EU?

Was the UK right to leave the EU?

The answers to the first two are pretty clear to me. The answer to the third lies in a number of factors - the balance between one and two, the state of the UK's preparations in the event of leaving, and future government policy.
 
An update from the Sunlit Uplands:

"Trade war looms as UK set to spurn EU offer on Northern Ireland"

"France calls on UK to ‘pay what it owes’ for policing Channel"

"Boris Johnston faces fresh Brexit clash with judges. No 10 prepares for confrontation in courts and House of Lords over Northern Ireland"

"Brexit row erupts: Frost brutally blasts back at Ireland as spat goes public 'Listen!'"

 
I think there's merit in this. The question for me was always about 'whether the EU was beyond reproach', weasel words though they are, which usually lead to a diatribe about how wonderful the EU really is. The EU is so far beyond reproach as to leave mere reproach a dot in the rear view mirror.

No there is nothing 'weasel' about knowing that the EU is not beyond reproach because that was not the question. You don't get to frame a question that wasn't asked, just because you wish to use your view of the EU as justification for your answer the totally different question that was before us.

Is the EU a good thing?

On balance it is indeed a good thing. Many of the aspects of which you have admitted in the past. Indeed you still claim to have been troubled by being confronted with such a choice.

Will the UK be worse off for leaving the EU?

Obviously. Only someone determined to look the other way could fail to notice this.

Was the UK right to leave the EU?

Certainly not. It's wasted Billions, divided the UK, weakened our world standing and caused immense difficulties for perfectly good businesses that were set up in good faith, many of which that would not have existed at all but for the opportunities presented by such a large inclusive market next door. That's without the very obvious political and reputational damage that Johnson feels emboldened to persist with.

The level of organisation and preparation needed to even reduce the fall out was nowhere in sight and a smug "we're special" or "they need us more than we need them" was the most appalling hubris that other people pay the price for.
 
We have a very responsible meeja that is in no way creating the problem it is reporting in order to gain more clicks.

Oh no. As if.

It's all very responsible.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-leaves-Britons-claiming-unable-buy-food.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shelves-empty-across-uk-millions-25177252

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16373968/supermarket-shelves-empty-stockpiling-essentials/

I predict headlines about 'NO FOOD FOR SALE ANYWHERE IN THE UK' when the Great Xmas Food Panic kicks in. eBay will be awash with backed beans for £20 a tin.

What’s with the water buying?, is tap water undrinkable in the U.K. all of a sudden?, water filters banned?
 
What’s with the water buying?, is tap water undrinkable in the U.K. all of a sudden?, water filters banned?

Don't swim in the rivers or around the coast these days. Those blue beaches were always over-rated anyway. :)
 
I should know better than to indulge you, as it seems only to feed your vindictive spite, but I see it has also fed that of the other 'usual suspect' too. I asked you earlier what had made you pose the question, as its only logical basis seemed to me to be puerile, deliberately inflammatory, or simply ignorant. So indulge you I will, at my peril no doubt. No, of course I didn't support Putin's annexation of Crimea.

I have no idea what you mean by 'found solace in the EU' s response' either. The EU openly stirred up trouble in the Ukraine as part of its drive to bring the country into its regulatory and cheap labour orbit, led by its rabble-rouser in chief, Guy Verhofsadt. Needless to say our Guy, who has an expensive Aston Martin habit to feed, had his fingers in one or two tasty commercial pies in the Ukraine, much as he had done during the EU's smashing up of Greece. It is not defending Putin, for Putin is what he is, to say that Russia's behaviour was a predictably opportunistic response to the EU's inept meddling.

To paraphrase Bercow: 'calm yourself man. You're shouting, waving your arms about and going very red in the face. Maybe take up yoga.'

You're anti-annexation. The EU are also anti-annexation. You are now aligned with the EU. Maybe you are just a confused Remainer.

Guy has an Aston? Lucky man.
 
It doesn’t help that we have the very worst newspapers in the world, always on the brink of hysteria and always ready to turn a drama into a crisis.
 
No there is nothing 'weasel' about knowing that the EU is not beyond reproach because that was not the question. You don't get to frame a question that wasn't asked, just because you wish to use your view of the EU as justification for your answer the totally different question that was before us.

Almost always weasel words, for the simple reason I pointed out. The sentence nearly always precedes an unquestioning vindication of the virtuosity of the EU.

A simple question was set before us. We don't then answer that question without thoroughly interrogating our reasoning. Do do this effectively, you divide the question into its vital components, debate them with your own conscience, and with other people. From this process you reach a decision.

On balance it is indeed a good thing. Many of the aspects of which you have admitted in the past. Indeed you still claim to have been troubled by being confronted with such a choice.

Indeed, and so I am.

Obviously. Only someone determined to look the other way could fail to notice this.

This is currently certainly beyond dispute.

Certainly not. It's wasted Billions, divided the UK, weakened our world standing and caused immense difficulties for perfectly good businesses that were set up in good faith, many of which that would not have existed at all but for the opportunities presented by such a large inclusive market next door. That's without the very obvious political and reputational damage that Johnson feels emboldened to persist with.

The level of organisation and preparation needed to even reduce the fall out was nowhere in sight and a smug "we're special" or "they need us more than we need them" was the most appalling hubris that other people pay the price for.

I think far too soon to tell. The EU is making itself busy post brexit/covid in becoming increasingly and much more assertively imperialistic. We are not looking at an attractive organisation.
 
Certainly not. It's wasted Billions, divided the UK, weakened our world standing and caused immense difficulties for perfectly good businesses that were set up in good faith, many of which that would not have existed at all but for the opportunities presented by such a large inclusive market next door. That's without the very obvious political and reputational damage that Johnson feels emboldened to persist with.

I've said this before, and, although IANAL, it seems that there may be a case for many businesses to sue the government for pure economic loss as a result of negligence, for the reasons above. Johnson was warned that this would happen, that the disruption to supply chains would be inevitable once we left the SM/CU leaving some previously lucrative business models unviable, and yet what does he do? He just lies about it being a necessary part of the transition to a high-skill, high-wages economy. Utter contemptuous b*ll*cks. So I say to the businesses thus affected: go ahead. Scare the living daylights out of this so-called 'government' and threaten to sue them.
 
The question seems to me not right. The 'least worst' option can't really be deemed the best. I don't even think they are the least worst, economically speaking. The monetarist culture has been exported worldwide, by choice or not, so the picture is difficult, but the EU chose it even though they have the power to do so much better.

Political union is good. Even trade agreement is good. Monetary union is and has been a disaster and people who warned about that way back in the 80s/90s before it occurred (like Charles Goodhart, Wynn Godley) have been proved right.

Disagree with that. UK as you agree have taken the worst option.
On the monetary union it has been flawed and fraught with problems but most of those problems were created by the foolishness of the so called Pigs. Of course the Germans play a huge part for the lack of oversight by their institutions during that period. For sure the policy needs to be more diversified and what has been acknowledged here by many on the remain side is the slowness of the EU to act. That has always been a problem.

But at the end of the day this is a Brexit thread and for all the valid policies etc you have outlined afaik the UK did not leave to pursue any of those noble goals. There in lies the problem. As has been repeated many times most of the people who voted leave didn't even understand what they wanted or the mess they were voting for. As quoted below by Minio which is more of the cake and eat it scenario they wanted to give the EU a bloody nose but with typical British exceptionalism keep the parts of the EU that worked in their favour.

The government should have kept freedom of movement.
It would not have pleased the Farages of this world but would have eased the supply line shock we are currently experiencing in a lot of sectors.
For many, Brexit was intended as a warning shot to Brussels. Not a serious intention to hang ourselves. It was a bit like voting for industrial action when the biggest losers will be those who voted (ie in their pay packets) should they go ahead with it.
Funnily enough the last vote of that type I was involved in, resulted in no action as it would not have been legal; even though the results of the ballot were in favour of industrial action.
 
To paraphrase Bercow: 'calm yourself man. You're shouting, waving your arms about and going very red in the face. Maybe take up yoga.'

You're anti-annexation. The EU are also anti-annexation. You are now aligned with the EU. Maybe you are just a confused Remainer.

Guy has an Aston? Lucky man.

You seem to be getting a bit desperate, Kirk. There comes a time when you really need to zip it, but no, on you thrash.

On your first non-point, I feel almost supranaturally calm today, and there is nothing in my post to indicate otherwise. Grow up.

On your second non-point, you've evidently both failed to read what I wrote, or looked past the end of your own nose at the EU's behaviour.

You seem content with that corrupt, shit-stirring little shit Verhofstadt. Fine by me, he's out of my loop now. We've got lots of work to do right here dealing with our own corrupt shits, elected and otherwise.

Why not just try to be a bit more civil?
 
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