Spoken like a middle aged white guy! (Guessing a bit).
Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIV
- Thread starter Tony L
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TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Racism happens in the the EU, it happens in Glasgow, it happens in London, it’s universal, it’s in every culture. The point is that we have a government pandering to it and exploiting it, a Prime Minister who speaks like a racist and a press that stokes it overtly, then when it needs to, slyly. I’m afraid like syphilis, it’s back.
Tony L
Administrator
…and now blocked.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
It is an answer in so far as the French authorities would arrest them as illegal immigrants in to France. The fact that they would be in the act of departing French shores is secondary.
As I have said before we need to get this sorted whilst numbers are relatively low. As climate change makes conditions increasingly difficult for peoples in many countries this trickle will become a flood and we simply can't allow that to happen.
Regards
Richard
Richard Lines
pfm Member
It is also a fact that Germany has sent a very large number back....... https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/10-european-union-countries-that-deport-the-most-people.html
Regards
Richard
In your last point I think you correctly identify what will become the defining issue on years to come. One which will test everyone's morality. Perhaps we will all crack and forbid entry.
However, while migrant flows remain 'a trickle' what's your difficulty with them?
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
To put it in proportion, Germany took in over half a million Syrian refugees,the U.K.?- 11,400, yet to the Brexit voting public, it was ‘breaking point’-
vince rocker
pfm Member
Sounds like "swamped" to me. We know who else used that word about immigration.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
No, that’s a fudge. There’s nothing preventing the French authorities arresting them at any point while they are on their territory, ie the days and weeks before they attempt the crossing. The camps where they huddle are hardly hidden.
My point is that the U.K. expects the French to intercept them, in French waters, and I’ve not yet heard a convincing argument as to what legal basis the French authorities would have for taking such action. The only one I could think of would’ve some pretext about their safety, but I don’t think that’s going to convince anybody.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
Simply because the numbers are going to increase and 'we' need to ask the question at what point do you draw the line.
Are we referring to Enoch Powell here? See my answer above. Ask Turkey how it feels about 4million refugees?
This has nothing whatsoever to do with racism. Climate change is likely to cause the largest mass migration in human history. How many do you think we should try to accommodate?
OK let's get down to maritime law - the French are well able to detect these boats in their waters and they are obliged to rescue them and have at least 11 miles of water to do it in.
Regards
Richard
At what point to we draw the line? Much, much further down the line.
You live in a nation one third the size of England with a population considerably smaller than London. Bringing in a sizeable number would make little difference to you or I.
We are relatively prosperous and bare a fair amount of responsibility for the state of the planet and for numerous geopolitical problems. We should do more.
I think it's a bit early for torpedo boats and machine gun nests on the cliffs of Dover though I imagine we'll get there in the end.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
About 500 million likely to be forced to move by sea level rise, a billion more my famine by 2050
Tony L
Administrator
My suspicion is climate change is a key reason why the political right are going so all-out in dehumanising refugees and creating such a strong sense of ‘the other’ attacking defenceless people in dinghies is seen as acceptable amongst the tabloid demographic. Get the scapegoating in nice and early so when the shit really hits the fan, which it will, those fleeing can just be bombed or shot, or at least turned away without much public outcry. I guess it may even have been a factor for the billionaires and press barons who paid for the Brexit project, i.e. preemptively isolate the UK far away from a likely more responsible and humanitarian EU response. They get their low wage low tax walled haven for the super rich that only floods in the areas that they don’t buy themselves. Maybe a cynical perspective, possibly even a little paranoid, but the people behind both Brexit and this Conservative government have proven beyond any shadow of doubt to be so corrupt and untrustworthy on so many levels now little would surprise me.
droodzilla
pfm Member
How many do you think should be left to die?
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Thanks for that, not heard of him, he’s a very good presenter. He raised the thorny issue of just in time supply chains and we know that car manufacture in Britain is critically dependent on it, yet it’s gone completely silent in the media.
What’s going on- are factories like Mini staying afloat by living off stockpiles and subject to diminished demand at the present?
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
Why are the French obliged to rescue them if they are not in danger? - which mostly they won`t be when they have only just set off? They may or may not have been in France illegally but either way if they have not been detained what justifies the French authorities in stopping them from leaving?
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Maybe a bit paranoid, and certainly cynical, though there's nothing wrong with that. Your conspiracy theories about the tories and their backers are de rigeur, and long predate the Brexit vote. Hell, you might even be right, but I do feel that your feelings are motivated by a lifelong political stance, and a vitriolic hatred of the conservative party as much as by properly informed research. However, that's fine, it really would be awful if we all felt the same way, and opposition to power is vital.
However, I simply don't get your stance on the EU. Your view of it seems to be entrenched in some kind of naive, idealised utopianism whereby it becomes a symbol for the values of peace, progressivism, tolerance and collectivism, without either any apparent grasp of its origins in the neoliberal theories of the 1930s, its governance and institutions, or the belief that anyone who doesn't support the EU and opposes Britain's membership, could possibly share those same values, a vast intellectual failing common to your side of the great Brexit divide.
The EU has placed a fence along its entire Eastern border, patrolled by its much expanded Frontex border force. Its patrol boats stand off whilst Greek navy boats forcibly turn refugee boats around in the Aegean (it is to there that Patel travelled to observe how it was done). It itself turns boats around by proxy by paying Libya to do it on its behalf. Libyan navy patrol boats are allegedly not averse to using live ammunition to encourage the refugees not to ignore them. It pays vast sums of money to the Turkish government to prevent refugees from leaving that country, confining them to apparently unsanitary encampments, and providing Turkey's unsavoury president with unwarranted powers to further bribe the EU.
Germany sends far more asylum seekers back than the UK does. The French authorities harass them as they pass through that country. And so it goes on.
The passage of people across the Channel in rubber dinghies is incredibly dangerous, and it is quite astonishing that not more have died - that they haven't is certainly due to the efforts of the UK border forces and the RNLI. It feeds criminal networks which are run by unprincipled thugs who are not averse to abandoning families to certain death in the middle of the Sahara, it eats up vast resources, and it renders the UK's borders open to potential crime.
I don't support what the government is doing, but they've got to get a grip on this thing.
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