gavreid
Pretty Words...
I just got a (older) Sugden class A, 50 W, power amp and it's really shining with this material, I can't tell you how happy I am.
Tone Poet Blue Notes
- Thread starter poco a poco
- Start date
I just got a (older) Sugden class A, 50 W, power amp and it's really shining with this material, I can't tell you how happy I am.
Tony L
Administrator
Has anyone else got the Lee Morgan Lighthouse box? I have to admit I’m pleased I bought this one on CD rather than dropping £300 or whatever it is on the vinyl. The sound is ‘ok’ rather than what we expect from Tone Poets etc, the bass is not good, obviously clipped and odd tonally at times, and the overall balance between players is just not great. It’s still good, and doesn’t get in the way of the music, which is excellent, so definitely worth having as a recording, but I’m happy with the CDs (or even streaming) here.
You sound like you are bit disappointed with the set. There are some reports from the Hoffman forum that the new CDs suffer from some compression although not too badly.
I haven't heard the 12 record set but I do have the original Blue Note release and the 3CD box.
While the balance is a bit 'off', the original record does sound very good, much better than the CDs I have. I am not sure about the bass being 'not good' because apparently Jymie Merritt was using some sort of new fangled electric bass and that might have been the way it sounded.
I'd recommend picking up the original LPs (RVG in the deadwax). The tracks are well selected and excellent. I don't expect them to be too expensive. In fact the sound of the original records partly convinced me to get the new record set because there seems to be more to the sound of the tapes than the CDs seem to suggest.
I haven't heard the 12 record set but I do have the original Blue Note release and the 3CD box.
While the balance is a bit 'off', the original record does sound very good, much better than the CDs I have. I am not sure about the bass being 'not good' because apparently Jymie Merritt was using some sort of new fangled electric bass and that might have been the way it sounded.
I'd recommend picking up the original LPs (RVG in the deadwax). The tracks are well selected and excellent. I don't expect them to be too expensive. In fact the sound of the original records partly convinced me to get the new record set because there seems to be more to the sound of the tapes than the CDs seem to suggest.
Tony L
Administrator
No, that’s not really what I’m trying to say. I’m only up to CD #3 so far and I am enjoying it a lot, the longer tracks are very good indeed and do point to a future that may have been had Morgan not been shot and killed shortly after. I also like the way the CDs are mainly split into complete sets. I’d be interested to hear original RVG cut vinyl, though I’m not sure how he could fix the obviously uneven bass here. It sounds like a mic issue to me, though in fairness I’ve only done Friday’s three sets so far, so they may well have noticed and corrected this on later days.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
A nice report on DG Mono of a visit to a Tone Poet mastering session.
https://dgmono.com/2021/08/29/how-a-blue-note-remastering-session-works-dgm-visits-cohearent-audio/
https://dgmono.com/2021/08/29/how-a-blue-note-remastering-session-works-dgm-visits-cohearent-audio/
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Paul,
Thanks for this. I do keep an eye on the excellent DG Mono from time to time, but it would probably take me a while to have picked this up. Interesting to see an exterior shot of Kevin Gray's studio. Looks like a typical house in a suburban housing development. I was expecting something larger and more urban. Still would seem to fit well for Van Gelder Blue that were made at his parents home in Hackensack.
I have some agreement with him regarding Joe Harley's choices of a Stereo over Mono for the early Blue Notes. I do appreciate the extra 'air' in those mastered by him and Kevin, but I also tend to think the spread is sometimes too wide and sometimes not much going on in one channel (usually the left) making it sound a bit unnatural to me. Plus I also think they can sound a little 'bright'. Even if Joe Harley is allowing for a little further softening in the vinyl pressing. I suppose still down somewhat to individual systems and taste. Mine tends a little toward the studio approach and a few use the speakers I have now.
Graham H
pfm Member
I find most pressings of many BNs a bit too bright for my taste, so it’s interesting that DGM found the master tapes to be that way inclined. Reading between the lines I don’t think he was exactly blown away by the VG tapes.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I find that the ones I have on Music Matters 2x45rpm are much better balanced for my taste in that respect. Almost the same team, but perhaps Ron Rambach had more influence on the final vinyl sound?
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I thought it was interesting too that he said the RVG tape sounded more obviously like a recording.
I wonder if Rudy's recording style with everything quite close miked was initially through necessity when recording in a small room but later continued because it allowed him greater freedom to mix and create a very immediate sound, recording very hot, almost to the point of distortion. I like it - the music jumps out at you - but it's a somewhat different approach to the big studios of the day like Columbia.
Graham H
pfm Member
I wonder just how much influence on SQ Rambach and Harley have/had?
“Several minutes later, by the end of the first side, EQ moves and other adjustments contributed to what I felt was a smoother top end and a more even stereo spread...”
A sobering thought for those that still believe in the mythological flat transfer.
Tony L
Administrator
I’ve long thought that Rudy Van Gelder deliberately recorded bright so he could back it off later at the cut. I’m actually convinced by it and it annoys me when modern mastering engineers see the master tape as the reference, not the vinyl Rudy himself created from them. As he was responsible for the whole process end to end I suspect he was actually doing his own noise reduction to some degree, plus it is always easier to cut top than boost it. His records do not sound over-bright or tizzy at all, they sound phenomenal and have an extraordinary midrange punch and presence. I am convinced he knew exactly what he was doing and was viewing the whole picture. I’d swap every single audiophile Tone Poet, Classic Records or lovely Japanese reissue I own for the original US RVG-stamped stereo cuts. Impulse & Riverside too.
Graham H
pfm Member
To be fair, no one here - inc DGM - has said that. A bit too bright is not over-bright or tizzy. Unless you have some other context in mind.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Yes I agree with that. I said "a little bright" and not all of those I have. The Tone Poets are still up there with the best pressings around and Blue Note originals now are way above nearly everyone's price range and even in near mint condition will almost certainly be noisier than the Tone Poets. There are some interesting observations about impact, noise and groove width in the latest post on LJC and the responses: https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/2021/08/27/george-russell-stratus-phunk-1960-us-riverside/
But really it does come down to the mastering team choices and whether they suit your view of the "correct" sound. The Classic record reissues I have heard of Blue Notes sound brighter than the Tone Poets to me. The AS Verve recent reissues, where I do have a some US and UK original pressings and have done a couple of comparisons sound a little more rolled off to me.
Clearly a case a different approach being taken by the original mastered record and in these cases Bernie Grundman (Classic), Joe Harley and Kevin Gray (TP's) and Ryan K Smith and Kassem (As Verve). Generally all good, but we may all prefer some approaches to others.
At least I'm glad we are now getting something better than the dross put out by DOL and similar as reissues.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I just got an email from Amazon that at least from them mine are delayed until the 5th Oct. now. I was half expecting that though.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
The Blue Note shop too - 1st October.
Tony L
Administrator
I’m definitely sitting All Seeing Eye out as I’ve got a Van Gelder-stamped blue label of that one which sounds great. I’d be amazed if the TP got close to it, let alone beat it. The Konitz/Mulligan may be a bit early for me. At 1953 it has to be the earliest recording given the TP treatment, so obviously mono, and half live, half studio apparently. I’d want to hear it before committing 35 quid. Not an album I’ve heard of to be honest.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I definitely wanted a better copy of All Seeing Eye as it is one of Shorter's best IMO.
The Konitz meets Gerry Muligan is a bit of an odd ball for Tone Poet's as the only version I know of is a later released compilation. The original Pacific was part recorded in a studio called The Haig and the rest at Phil Turesky's home studio, but that was a Capitol records recording I think (Edit: probably not a problem as Capitol is now part of Universal as well). It will be interesting to see what the track listing is. If just the Pacific recordings it will probably be a bit short on recording times. I like a lot of the early Lee Konitz mono's and some are well recorded so I'll be interested in how good this is with my dedicated mono cartridge.
This is possibly the original much shorter non compilation version for some of the Tracks. 10' LP with a different cover?:
https://www.discogs.com/Lee-Konitz-...nd-The-Gerry-Mulligan-Quartet/release/4901678
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MusicMiles
pfm Member
I found works by Lee Konitz to be at a premium at least on the reissue market. I've only been able to cobble together Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh (mono), Inside Hi Fi and the Blue Note 80 Alone Together which some people don't like because of the edited down takes and the fade outs but considering what else is available I consider it important. I'm very much looking forward to hearing Lee Konitz Plays With the Gerry Mulligan Quartet and adding it to my collection along with All Seeing Eye.