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Afghanistan withdrawal.

Seeker_UK said:
1. That's for our politicians to sort out.
2. You're not usually one for whataboutism, Steve.
3. They can expect what they like. I'd be more sympathetic to their way of life if they didn't go around killing and brutalising people in the name of their religion.

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4. What's your view on what should happen to all of those in Afghanistan who've grown up with a degree of freedom and that don't want to live the lifestyle that the Taliban will force them to live, or get killed if they don't?
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2: That's not whataboutism, that's what makes Afghanistan special? If we have the right/need/obligation to address what's happening in Afghanistan then we should apply the same standards to other states.
4. My view re liberal Afghans is the same as my view re those of us in the UK that didn't vote for Brexit or the current shower, we get it anyway. Sorry. Now I take your point that nobody is going to kill me for voting remain or Labour, but thems the breaks.
 
Education, especially of the women, would be the only hope for any progressive future of the varied peoples that inhabit that harsh terrain (with that very terrain perpetuating the feudal/tribal society, and the reason of many failed foreign attempts at domination). But the various "Talibans" have long figured that out, so I'm not holding out much hope at all. My family roots are originally from Bangladesh which is also largely Sunni Muslim, and we have a trust for the education of aspiring but economically disadvantaged kids from my grandfather's district. We give out hundreds of valuable secondary/college sponsorships a year. The one sponsorship ceremony that I attended was around 90% female pupils (of around 200+). It also helps that the last two PMs have been women (although neither have been great*). Education and especially that of the aspirational female population is why I hold out hope for Bangladesh's future (pop growth and climate change notwithstanding). Unfortunately I cannot see this ever happening in the Afghan territories.

* actually compared to this current Johnson-led government I am re-evaluating this!
 
Mystic Mac said:
as per Chomsky, follow the money.

It will undoubtedly be found in the pockets of US military equipment/armament suppliers and associated contractors. That is a major reason why the occupation has lasted so long. The USA cares little of the plight of the Afghani.
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Obhama was president for eight of those twenty years so I presume you think he was for milking the cash cow too and if so can you tell us his connections to the US military/industrial complex?
 
Spraggons Den said:
Obhama was president for eight of those twenty years so I presume you think he was for milking the cash cow too and if so can you tell us his connections to the US military/industrial complex?
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Every president is de-facto connected to the defense industry, because they are Commander-in-Chief as well as a final signature on the defense budget. There may not be a personal profit at all, it's just how the system is designed.... pretty much everywhere.
 
Spraggons Den said:
Obhama was president for eight of those twenty years so I presume you think he was for milking the cash cow too and if so can you tell us his connections to the US military/industrial complex?
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Look at the policies he implemented and look at the people he put in key positions. He was a neoliberal.
 
Frizzy said:
The overarching question in the Middle East and Islamic culture is the fate of ‘political ‘Islam’ .
Is the idea of western democracy compatible with political Islam, does Moslem culture need its own alternative or is religious dictat the only future?
Islam has been arguing the principles of the Quo-ran and Hadith and mans rights for centuries and is still split, in many ways Islamic culture is where Christianity was In the Middle Ages. It is still rooted in mysticism and monarchy and yet to reconcile religion and independent thought.
There is a further split in the contradictions between the quo ran and Hadith, which ultimately led to the fracturing of Islam into Sunni and Shia.
The issue is so complicated it makes my brain hurt, Abraham and Ishmael have a lot to answer for.
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The Middle East might have progressed if not for western Imperialism (including creating countries with straight-line borders and imposing rulers) ever since the Ottoman hegemony collapsed.
 
wacko said:
The Middle East might have progressed if not for western Imperialism ever since the Ottoman hegemony collapsed.
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Progressed in what direction, given that the parting shot of the Ottoman Empire was the Armenian genocide, in which up to 1.5 million people were systematically starved to death, or simply massacred. ?

Whilst acknowledging the slow-burn disaster of Sykes-Picot etc, your post does smack slightly of Asian Imperialism = good; Western Imperialism = bad, according to the formula that decrees that all of Western Imperialism = bad.

Sorry, I wanted to, but couldn't let that go unremarked.
 
wacko said:
The Middle East might have progressed if not for western Imperialism (including creating countries with straight-line borders and imposing rulers) ever since the Ottoman hegemony collapsed.
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Key word here is “might”.

I stick to my theory that any country touched by the Ottoman Empire was/is doomed for at least the next 7 centuries (7 is a useful number for these sorts of predictions). Just look at the Balkans.

The countries that have it really hard are the ones that have benefitted from the tender attentions of the Russian, Western, Ottoman, Persian, Russian and Mongol empires. Which, thinking about it, might include Afghanistan.
 
hifinutt said:
in 6 months time the taliban will control all of afghanistan at the rate they are going . i dont know what the answer is to this situation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57773120
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I'm reminded of the Serenity Prayer

"grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference."

Using military might to drag Afghanistan into the 21st century is a hiding to nothing. Bill Gates has the right idea - we will relieve much more human suffering through control of malaria, diarrhoea etc. Unfortunately that doesn't funnel money to military contractors, and so we end up with disastrous wars like Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
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