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Tone Poet Blue Notes

I also believe the Van Gelder piano sound is a bit distanced and boxed in in many Van Gelder recordings partly including those from Englewood Cliffs as well as Hackensack although perhaps not as bad. I think it was partly his attempts to avoid overload distortion and mike bleed, not always successfully. Also I think he always tended to favour the horns in his group recordings with those, bringing them well forward in the mix in comparison to the other instruments. The recordings on Blue Note that tend to be somewhat better and where the piano is a bit more prominent in the mix are usually those where the pianist was designated as the group leader for the recording. This is what Steve Hoffman who has mastered for reissue many Van Gelder recordings has to say:

"The piano is always the hardest instrument to record. Back in the day, it always showed the flaws in any recording system. Usually you had a Neumann mic hooked into a mic pre console that wasn't compatible with it. You got overload (listen to BILL EVANS title mentioned above). When everything matched correctly there was no overload distortion but then engineers like Van Gelder or Ray Fowler, Jack Higgins, etc. wanted the piano to sound "better" or louder or more able to cut through. So they started EQ'ing the keyboards and running it through a separate compressor, putting the mic right inside the piano, etc., still with overload or the sound of cardboard. Never worked for these guys because they didn't understand that in order for a German mic to "do piano", ya needed SPACE between the mic and the instrument. These small studios didn't want leakage, etc. so they couldn't or wouldn't do it. Columbia or RCA in their big ol' rooms in the late 1950's didn't have this problem and they recorded the piano just like they did in the 1920's, from a short distance (sometimes taking the lid of the piano."
 
kjb said:
Its odd how he captures the characteristics and tonality of so many other instruments and misses it with the piano. Drums, horns and bass could often in the room when the piano sounds like its coming through a filter.
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poco a poco said:
When everything matched correctly there was no overload distortion but then engineers like Van Gelder or Ray Fowler, Jack Higgins, etc. wanted the piano to sound "better" or louder or more able to cut through. So they started EQ'ing the keyboards and running it through a separate compressor, putting the mic right inside the piano, etc., still with overload or the sound of cardboard.
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I think Hoffman has nailed it with the word cardboard. I wonder who ‘etc’ is?
 
Agree that a piano is more challenging to close mic than, say, a trumpet - it's just so big with sound emanating from the whole instrument.

I wonder how much the fact that the players were crammed in close together contributed to the energy on a lot of those records.

I remembered the footage of Monk recording at Columbia (3 mins in below) and wondered how it would compare - it seems to also show a mic hung inside the piano. And weirdly the drums facing the piano with a baffle behind the set. I guess the spill was part of the sound of those records.

Edit: apologies for slight thread tangent!

 
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Graham, there's quite a few, I had Bass On Top playing in the last couple of days and When Hank Jones went up the scale it was quite jarring. Now that might be because I'm almost totally deaf in the upper registers (73db down) it took me by surprise. That's only one but there are others.
 
Dougie2404 said:
Graham, there's quite a few, I had Bass On Top playing in the last couple of days and When Hank Jones went up the scale it was quite jarring. Now that might be because I'm almost totally deaf in the upper registers (73db down) it took me by surprise. That's only one but there are others.
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There is quite a bit of mike bleed on Bass On Top and a declaration on the back of the album cover about mike overload on Art Taylor's crash cymbal (although some are of the opinion that this is the typical sound of a 'rivet cymbal). Is it possible if the top end of your is poor that this is what you are hearing as coming from the piano as a "jarring sound" ?
 
Here is an excellent site I’m still exploring, The Rudy Van Gelder Legacy written and presented by Richard Capeless, aka DGMono. Richard always writes well, has occasionally posted on PFM, and understands heritage and record collecting. Hope you enjoy it. Great photos. Essential reading IMO for anyone with a Blue Note recording in their collection:

http://rvglegacy.org/the-story/

And here is the DGMono site:

https://dgmono.com/
 
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I ended up ordering the Charles Lloyd record on Friday after having had a chance to listen to it via Quboz. I particularly liked the idea of some of Bill Frisell's playing at TP quality. I ordered it from the Blue Note UK site yesterday morning and it arrived mid morning today which is Amazon-like speed.

On first listen its a good record - quite varied ( Ornette Coleman to Monk to flute and guitar county jazz) and the sound is lovely and crisp and deep. I am realising, though, that here is a magic and character to the Van Gelder recordings given the TP treatment that the modern recordings _ Scofield, Wilson, Lloyd) don't quite deliver, however good they are. I might stick to selected older recordings from now on.

That said the Lloyd is really good: the sound is a combination of his ECM recordings like The Water is Wide and the TP series. It's maybe a little pricy - I think I've become rather desensitised to this over the lockdown - but one that will get played a lot.
 
kjb said:
I ended up ordering the Charles Lloyd record on Friday after having had a chance to listen to it via Quboz.
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Thanks for the Qobuz heads up. On my playlist for later. I really like Frisell’s 90s work, I saw him live mid 90s. I’ve lost track since then.
 
tbh, Lloyd, who produced the record, has put himself front and centre. There are very few solos from others, much more of an integrated ensemble feel. When Frisell does have some solo space it still tends to be mixed close to the ensemble. Frisell also has a thicker sound here that usual: I'm not sure I'd have identified him straight away if I didn't know he was on the record.

Don't get me wrong its a good record but an interestingly organic mix with the individuals very much subsumed into the whole. The drums and bass sit quite a way back, there's less air in the mix and there are very few moments when instruments apart from the sax or flute are really highlighted. Its a very different flavour of TP to previous releases, for the most part, more reflective and a bit less dynamic than their live set here.

Charles Lloyd & The Marvels with Bill Frisell - 2016-01-30 set 1 - Lincoln Center, New York, NY - YouTube
 
kjb said:
It's maybe a little pricy - I think I've become rather desensitised to this over the lockdown - but one that will get played a lot.
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I was thinking the same about myself the other day. For me, I think it is combination of lockdown giving me more listening time and less travel outgoings and the sheer quality of the series.

I was going through my TP collection and noticed that I'd somehow missed 'The Kicker'. I'm not sure how because I tend to get these on pre-order as soon as they show on the websites. I could only find it in stock on Amazon at £45 (for a single release!), but I didn't hesitate for long. I'm not sure that I'd have bought it at that price a year ago!
 
kingston12 said:
I was thinking the same about myself the other day. For me, I think it is combination of lockdown giving me more listening time and less travel outgoings and the sheer quality of the series.

I was going through my TP collection and noticed that I'd somehow missed 'The Kicker'. I'm not sure how because I tend to get these on pre-order as soon as they show on the websites. I could only find it in stock on Amazon at £45 (for a single release!), but I didn't hesitate for long. I'm not sure that I'd have bought it at that price a year ago!
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I’ll say it again - Tone Poets £32 at Honest Jon’s. Free postage on orders over £50. I know Amazon is a source of income for our host, but £45 does seem a bit steep. Note - I have nothing to do with HJ professionally, only as a long term customer.
 
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Graham H said:
I’ll say it again - Tone Poets £32 at Honest Jon’s. Free postage on orders over £50. I know Amazon is a source of income for our host, but £45 does seem a bit steep. Note - I have nothing to do with HJ professionally, only as a long time customer.
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Thanks. I'll remember to look there in the future. I couldn't find it in stock in many places.
 
Superb! Just cancelled my Amazon pre-orders for Passing Ships and One Flight Up and ordered both plus Tone Poem with the 20% discount. £106 for the three delivered, I can cope with that!
 
spengenuk said:
There’s 20% off all titles on the Blue Note UK site now using SPRING20 until 21 March. Just pre ordered Moanin and Soul Station.
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Thanks. I just pre-ordered Passing Ships. I'm a big fan of Andrew Hill. I've got the TP Black Fire but I just adore Point of Departure and Grass Roots. What a pity it's such a long wait until Passing Ships is released. I'm not a patient person.
 
Tony L said:
Superb! Just cancelled my Amazon pre-orders for Passing Ships and One Flight Up and ordered both plus Tone Poem with the 20% discount. £106 for the three delivered, I can cope with that!
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Same here - the pre orders and the Lee Konitz which I've been putting off buying for ages

It has to be one of the most eccentric websites I've come across. Half of the vinyl is sold out but you can't see that unless you click on the record but some other stuff - including a lot of the TPs, including some more recent ones like The Waiting Game - have been removed.
 
My Jazz Dispensary order (Bryant & Bartz) arrived earlier from the US without even a hint of customs/tax, the Bartz in particular is a beautiful thing with a lovely heavy tip-on gatefold sleeve. I’ve pushed my luck and gone back for more (Hayes Shaft & Black Moses and the 24 Carat Black album)!

PS If anyone is considering similar there are only two Black Moses left, and not many more of the Shaft. Apologies for the thread-divert, but this is all good stuff and worth flagging up.
 
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