advertisement


Brexit: give me a positive effect... XI

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh, and I have never said that Britain's problems are due to the EU.
You have often said, though, that the EU is undemocratic, neoliberal and corrupt, and that the UK is better off out of it. It’s kind of implicit in that viewpoint, surely, that the EU is a significant contributory factor?
 
You have often said, though, that the EU is undemocratic, neoliberal and corrupt, and that the UK is better off out of it. It’s kind of implicit in that viewpoint, surely, that the EU is a significant contributory factor?

Not at all. I do believe that the EU is all of those things, and as is now being made clear (again), pretty unpleasant too. The awful - and it is awful - dilemma is that the UK is not 'better off' out of it.

The EU offers two things - the political project, which, as you succinctly if belatedly pointed out the other day, rigidly encapsulates the concept of 'ever closer union' (empire, dominion and power) and the economic bit, within which the Single Market is enshrined. It doesn't offer the latter unless you sign up to the former. You can dine with the devil, or choose the deep blue sea.
 
The issue here is the potential for a very much larger flow of goods moving from the UK to the EU mainland through NI & RoI (and vice versa) devoid of any customs and tariff policing is it not ?

I really don't think so. The issue is the EU bending over backwards to make life as difficult as it possibly can for the UK.

I suspect that the EU is contravening international law on an increasing number of fronts over brexit, and the NI border is one of them.

I'd imagine any leaver posting on a thread to list positives to leaving the EU would be similarly ready to slit their wrists.

You're probably not wide of the mark.
 
I would suggest otherwise, the people behind Leave.EU and Farage &Co knew their audience. The conflation of Freedom Of Movement with a refugee crisis was perfect timing for them. There is still a refugee crisis and we hear precious little about it now it has served it's purpose.

The antipathy to immigration was not "generally at lower levels than most of the EU" (see table). That's why it was central to the Brexit campaign. The numerous vox pops and QT audiences provided ample demonstration of hostile environment that had been cultivated - beginning with Cameron's absurd 'targets' which then led to May's "F off home or we're coming for you" trucks among other measures such as the fortunes squandered on vexatious automatic appealing of residence applications - seeking to make appeals fail for lack of ability to pay to fight them, rather than the justice or legitimacy of the claim.

Sustained media and particularly newspaper owner's xenphobic campaigning paid off bigly. It reached fever pitch during 2015 into 2016 - that is no coincidence.

Only when it was obvious that it was having the right effect and not putting off people who really should have known better, did Johnson join in with his own disgraceful contributions. It really became open season in the way that many Republicans now ape Trump.

Support for EU freedom of movement by country

figure1vtnov2018.png


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019...hreat-how-europeans-view-freedom-of-movement/

Fact is, it's easy to whip up xenophobia as a scape goat for your own failings and the UK Government were all over it once they realised it didn't upset too many people - shame on them. Hardly suggestive of your contention that such attitudes are were somehow at a lower level in the UK than the EU countries.

I'm afraid I don't accept your conflation of racism and being against EU freedom of movement.
 
^It all comes down to the fact that you'd rather the UK 'take back control' from foreigners though.
 
I'm afraid I don't accept your conflation of racism and being against EU freedom of movement.

Sorry that's trite and a convenient cop out. It is obvious xenophobia on a significant scale, they didn't do it because there was no audience. Nor does that change your incorrect assertion.
 
Oh, and I have never said that Britain's problems are due to the EU.

You have often said, though, that the EU is undemocratic, neoliberal and corrupt, and that the UK is better off out of it. It’s kind of implicit in that viewpoint, surely, that the EU is a significant contributory factor?
You’re trying yet again to pick an argument with someone over something they haven’t said. :rolleyes: Even when you’re told you just keep on and on.
 
Sorry that's trite and a convenient cop out. It is obvious xenophobia on a significant scale, they didn't do it because there was no audience. Nor does that change your incorrect assertion.
Taking back control of immigration was indeed a vote winner after five years of Tory austerity and increasing pension age why would it not be?
 
Sorry that's trite and a convenient cop out. It is obvious xenophobia on a significant scale, they didn't do it because there was no audience. Nor does that change your incorrect assertion.

I'm pro-immigration, but I also believe that borders are sovereign. I don't believe that makes me any more a racist than you are. I take it as read that you will disagree.
 
I'm pro-immigration, but I also believe that borders are sovereign. I don't believe that makes me any more a racist than you are. I take it as read that you will disagree.

This is neither here nor there, you personally were not the audience and nobody has mentioned racism although that may apply too in some cases. The campaign was xenophobic and deliberately so. Once it found favour as a tactic it was something Johnson was also happy to ride.
 
I really don't think so. The issue is the EU bending over backwards to make life as difficult as it possibly can for the UK.

I suspect that the EU is contravening international law on an increasing number of fronts over brexit, and the NI border is one of them.

I'm pro-immigration, but I also believe that borders are sovereign.
On the face of it, these positions seem inconsistent to the point of being contradictory. The EU border (between NI and ROI) is sovereign, but the EU is contravening international law in its insistence on rigorous controls?

And I have little difficulty believing that, if there was no border between mainland UK and NI, and also none between NI and ROI, ‘enterprising’ businesses wouldn’t flock to exploit such a control-free route from third countries into EU markets. In fact, it’s guaranteed. So I’m surprised you view the EU’s approach to prevention with such scepticism and scorn.
 
The EU is contravening international law by placing a customs border in the Irish Sea. The GFA is an international legal agreement.

You could, I suppose, argue that the UK is also breaking the GFA by having signed the NI Protocol. If so, it makes for an interesting legal conundrum.

The EU, incidentally, is probably also breaking international law (WTO/MFN) by granting countries such as Japan and New Zealand greater equivalence than it does the UK in financial services and SPS checks.
 
If you didn’t like how the UK was before Brexit, but you do now, what is it that you like now that you didn’t before?
I quite like that we can make our own way in the world now. Just like what the Scottish Nationalists dream of, we are not beholden to a far away non empathetic self interested pratocracy.
We now have a World - Beating Westminster government* in charge instead of some overseas bureaucrats that never asked my opinion about anything.
*Yes that's a joke, but at least I have some say in holding them to account.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


advertisement


Back
Top