ff1d1l
pfm Member
What he said, not you...on the button.As I said, sneery.
You ignore the trashing of democracy and political morality while attempting pathetically the most hamfisted attempts at misdirection...
We need our Biden.
What he said, not you...on the button.As I said, sneery.
Mmm. Needless to say, you and I probably have different opinions on what constitutes the trashing of democracy and political morality.
Not probably, certainly.
Lordsummit, I find your snipe pretty offensive. It has nothing whatsoever to do with foreigners. My mistrust (sneery is standard posture for the pfm remainer, just glance upthread) is reserved for anyone who has the keys to excessive power without the possibility of democratic sanction. The EU generally and the EC/ECJ in particular have been helping themselves to excessive power for 3 decades, and there is no democratic sanction whatsoever, because they are not elected.
The manifold shortcomings of the current government here will be subject to the ballot box, and if they are found to have been wanting or indeed bent, they'll be sacked and parked in front of the courts, in that order. And on current form, they're cerainly lined up for the former.
What we desperately lack at the moment is an opposition to the government to make sure they are. It isn't the job of the bloody EU to provide that, and never has been.
I’m calling BS. Because- Cummings/ untendered billions handed out to party donors/ shutting down parliament/ threatening the judiciary/ suppressing the report into Russian interference/ putting Russians into the HoL and being literally asleep on the job.
If we genuinely had the power to sack our political masters at the ballot box, we would surely have sacked Thatcher’s Tories in the 1980s, or the Cameron austerity government in 2015 as neither was delivering anything like what the average man in the street wanted or needed. We didn’t, because the system is stacked in favour of the right wing, and the people are gulled into believing their interests coincide with ours.
The idea that we have power via the ballot box is a thinly veneered fiction which is wearing thin. Problem is, there’s bigger all we can do about it even then.
I've done more than come close to acknowledging it, I've spelt it out explicitly. A few times, based on what I have experienced at first hand.Steve, I'm not going to be drawn into the immigration bit of this argument, but I should point out that you are the only person here who has come close to acknowledging the issues of people who were directly affected in their communities by the very rapid increase in EU immigration which commenced under Blair.
As ever, it's not that simple. The immigrants were scapegoated to disguise underinvestment. It did anything but bite the sitting politicos on the arse, dyed in the wool rural communities have never voted anything other than Conservative were told "it's the immigrants" to cover every one of their MPs shortcomings and they believed the easy cop out voted conservative again because "he'll do something about it" .If rapid immigration was an issue for these people, then it was a legitimate one, and they should have been heard by their political representatives. If the politicos didn't want to listen, then it was bound to come back and bite them on the arse sooner or later. If that sense of disenfranchisement crystallised in Brexit, they have only themselves to blame.
Sorry, I was unclear.
There has to be some talk now, about how we build a plan to replace what we lose from being outside the EU.
That's just my view, but you may believe that the plan has to be to return back to what we had with the EU.
I can understand the logic, but is that your view?
I've done more than come close to acknowledging it, I've spelt it out explicitly. A few times, based on what I have experienced at first hand.
As ever, it's not that simple. The immigrants were scapegoated to disguise underinvestment. It did anything but bite the sitting politicos on the arse, dyed in the wool rural communities have never voted anything other than Conservative were told "it's the immigrants" to cover every one of their MPs shortcomings and they believed the easy cop out voted conservative again because "he'll do something about it" .
Of course the scapegoating wasn't reserved to places with lots of immigrants, it was rolled out in places like Grimsby and Barnsley where there are few but the place is dirt poor because of where it is. Blaming the immigrants, however few they are, is easy for everyone concerned.
Sorry, I was unclear.
There has to be some talk now, about how we build a plan to replace what we lose from being outside the EU.
That's just my view, but you may believe that the plan has to be to return back to what we had with the EU.
I can understand the logic, but is that your view?
I simply stated that the result of EU policy has changed the UK in recent times.
Of course we can.Do we get to talk about the increased cost and the negative impact on the planet of moving trade from next door to far away?
It's big corporates which will erode rights. We could be on the edge of the next massive wave of technology replacing jobs in the decade to come.What about all that scaremongering turned reality like eroding workers' rights or a move to a US-style light-fingered state serving business interests over those of the people and privatising as much of the public services as possible?
Of course we can.
But it does sound a bit hollow, when vast chunks of the goods bought by ordinary people in the West are built in S.E Asia.
I'd love to see people buy more local stuff. But it's probably a minority viewpoint, and we must be realistic.
It's big corporates which will erode rights. We could be on the edge of the next massive wave of technology replacing jobs in the decade to come.
Do you really think the likes of Amazon will employ people just to be nice?
...
Of course the scapegoating wasn't reserved to places with lots of immigrants, it was rolled out in places like Grimsby and Barnsley where there are few but the place is dirt poor because of where it is. Blaming the immigrants, however few they are, is easy for everyone concerned.
Of course we can.
But it does sound a bit hollow, when vast chunks of the goods bought by ordinary people in the West are built in S.E Asia.
I'd love to see people buy more local stuff. But it's probably a minority viewpoint, and we must be realistic.