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V-talk: vegan, vegetarian and verisimilitude

Despite being vegetarian for 30+ years I honestly hadn't considered the issue of animal testing in vaccination.

In my case having T1 diabetes makes me more vulnerable so I'll certainly be getting the vaccine when offered. It has made me reflect more on animal testing though. The insulins I use will have been tested on animals but I'm not really in a position to boycott them - I'll die pretty quickly!
 
Despite being vegetarian for 30+ years I honestly hadn't considered the issue of animal testing in vaccination.

In my case having T1 diabetes makes me more vulnerable so I'll certainly be getting the vaccine when offered. It has made me reflect more on animal testing though. The insulins I use will have been tested on animals but I'm not really in a position to boycott them - I'll die pretty quickly!
I admire the ethical stance being taken by Windhoek and others, but it does occur to me that if you're already taking other drugs, then your position is compromised to a degree (I'm not being critical here, please understand that) and the argument carries less weight. Given the wider benefits to society of the population as a whole becoming vaccinated, the fewer people decline it, the better for all of us. It is, as it almost always is, not a black and white matter, is it? It's a tough call, and I'm rather glad I don't have to make it. Apologies from this (increasingly occasional) carnivore for crashing your thread, but this is an issue I wasn't aware of until I did, so I'm glad I read it.
 
I admire the ethical stance being taken by Windhoek and others, but it does occur to me that if you're already taking other drugs, then your position is compromised to a degree (I'm not being critical here, please understand that) and the argument carries less weight. Given the wider benefits to society of the population as a whole becoming vaccinated, the fewer people decline it, the better for all of us. It is, as it almost always is, not a black and white matter, is it? It's a tough call, and I'm rather glad I don't have to make it. Apologies from this (increasingly occasional) carnivore for crashing your thread, but this is an issue I wasn't aware of until I did, so I'm glad I read it.

It's a fair point and one I'd unexpectedly had to consider as it was something (medicine) I literally had no idea wasn't commensurate with my new life as a vegan. My somewhat hurried take on it is that the animal testing in relation to the above vaccines took place after I became vegan and so, seeing as I've got to start somewhere, that's where I've drawn the starting line, as it were.

Indeed, when I made the decision to become vegan I allowed myself to finish the non-vegan produce I'd already bought but hadn't yet consumed. I had a tin of Coffeeemate that saw me good for at least a couple of months after I made the decision, and I had some chocolate which I ate beyond decision day as well; the chocolate didn't last anywhere near as long as the Coffeemate! I've got a leather wallet (or two), some leather shoes and trainers as well as a few leather belts but, because I bought them before I made the decision, they get a free pass as well as they're part of my history. But I've bought nothing after decision day that's non-vegan: food or clothing-wise.

I've got some paracetamol in the kitchen and no doubt that was tested on animals at one point; admittedly, it was probably a long time ago. But whether I tighten my position on the matter remains to be seen. I don't buy animal-derived/harmed/tested products anymore and I've now begun to refuse animal-derived/harmed/tested medicines. I'm very lucky in that I've not required medicine for anything other than for mild pain relief to treat the usual causes: headaches, bike crashes, broken bones, etc, since... mmm, it was so long ago, I can't remember when the last time I needed medicine that wasn't for mild pain relief.

Not wishing to tempt fate here, but I rarely take ill. I've only taken 3 sick days in ten-twelve years or something like that. I'm one of those people who's only likely to be off because of injury. Illness? Not so much. I know I'm taking a gamble by refusing the vaccine but hopefully, I'll be one of the lucky ones whose immune system is up to the challenge. I guess the next time I need medication, I'll make sure my GP knows I'm vegan and then take it from there.

Best of health to you and yours :)
 
I know I'm taking a gamble by refusing the vaccine but hopefully, I'll be one of the lucky ones whose immune system is up to the challenge.

No. Unless you lock yourself up then you're taking a gamble on other peoples lives whose immune systems may not be up to the challenge.
 
windhoek, I read your comment above with much sympathy coated with a layer of understanding, and to a large extent I agree with you, not withguarding some caveats.

Having had the same experience as you re bicycle accidents 6 months ago, I'll say honestly when I was lying in the street, passing out occasionally from the pain, the thoughtof not having painkillers never crossed my concussed head. Neither did the extended time in hospital, and, to be honest, I have no idea what they pumped into me. The only positive, and this had nothing to do with animal testing, the moment I was in rehab I stopped taking the paracetomol they gave me every mealtime, but that had more to do with my general attitude towards any drugs, which is that, unless it is a leafy green plant, I avoid.

Second caveat is that, a couple of decades ago we had a property of roughly 150 acres. This we let out to the local farmer for his sheep, which was a stipulation of my then girlfriend as she was against the needless slaughter of animals so sheep for wool seemed a better solution than cutting the fields with a mower many times a year. Nevertheless, come late winter and lambing, I would not want to think what happened to our flock's progeny. She did what she could, I was more concerned with debt, to be truthful.

We did, however, have hens. This isn't a defence, but the hens lived happy lives until either a fox got them or they died of old age. The guinea fowl never even had the egg cruelty, they nested in the trees because, basically, they refused to be ushered inside at night. Their progeny may still be doing so, as far as I know.

The difficult part is that I have killed animals, having made the decision to do so. One example was a cat, caught in a trap previous owners had laid for foxes. No question of getting close to it, this was a wild cat, and in agony. It was in a bush where it had gone to die, I assumed, and my friend's trying to cover it with a blanket only resulted in a quick trip to hospital for her. The animal was in agony. I made a hard decision and killed it. Similarly even here in France I've had to do the same, albeit with fledglings fallen from their nest or having been turfed out therefrom by their parents. The locals shrug their shoulders and leave them to die, mostly because pigeons are a pest.

What I'm saying in a rambling fashion is that yes, I'm 90%vegan, and for the cruelty to animals reason, but there are circumstances when we must take decisions that affect animals whether we like it or not. My examples are tiny, true, but while I eat eggs as little as possible now, for example, were I to have another smallholding I would probably have chickens again. Animal testing I abhor, and is another issue, in the sense that we are animals and I would support testing on our species. The other thing is that, if I can get to Australia, I will, even if it means having the vaccine. I'll try to get an exemption, though conscience is seldom taken as a good enough reason.

P.S. Euan has a good point.
 
No. Unless you lock yourself up then you're taking a gamble on other peoples lives whose immune systems may not be up to the challenge.

It's hard to say there's not something in what you say, and I did take that point into consideration. I guess I'll carry on living the way I have since Covid-19 came about and continue to follow the guidelines around social distancing, hand sanitisation and face-covering etc, to prevent catching/spreading the virus. It might well be I've caught it already and was asymptomatic; I suppose I'd need to be tested to find out for sure. Either way, there are a lot of unknowns going forward and I can't predict how the future will unfold - especially now that a nationwide vaccination programme is underway. Indeed, based on the information being reported, it sounds like I'll pretty much be of no-to-little risk to anyone by the time summer arrives; knowing government predictions and delivery, that'll probably be more towards the end of autumn than the onset of summer. But as each day passes, there will be fewer and fewer people out there for whom I'll pose a risk by not being vaccinated because more and more people will have been vaccinated and more and more people will have caught the virus through no fault of my own.

However you at it, I accept it's a serious decision that may lead to serious consequences.
 
windhoek, I read your comment above with much sympathy coated with a layer of understanding, and to a large extent I agree with you, not withguarding some caveats.

Having had the same experience as you re bicycle accidents 6 months ago, I'll say honestly when I was lying in the street, passing out occasionally from the pain, the thoughtof not having painkillers never crossed my concussed head. Neither did the extended time in hospital, and, to be honest, I have no idea what they pumped into me. The only positive, and this had nothing to do with animal testing, the moment I was in rehab I stopped taking the paracetomol they gave me every mealtime, but that had more to do with my general attitude towards any drugs, which is that, unless it is a leafy green plant, I avoid.

Second caveat is that, a couple of decades ago we had a property of roughly 150 acres. This we let out to the local farmer for his sheep, which was a stipulation of my then girlfriend as she was against the needless slaughter of animals so sheep for wool seemed a better solution than cutting the fields with a mower many times a year. Nevertheless, come late winter and lambing, I would not want to think what happened to our flock's progeny. She did what she could, I was more concerned with debt, to be truthful.

We did, however, have hens. This isn't a defence, but the hens lived happy lives until either a fox got them or they died of old age. The guinea fowl never even had the egg cruelty, they nested in the trees because, basically, they refused to be ushered inside at night. Their progeny may still be doing so, as far as I know.

The difficult part is that I have killed animals, having made the decision to do so. One example was a cat, caught in a trap previous owners had laid for foxes. No question of getting close to it, this was a wild cat, and in agony. It was in a bush where it had gone to die, I assumed, and my friend's trying to cover it with a blanket only resulted in a quick trip to hospital for her. The animal was in agony. I made a hard decision and killed it. Similarly even here in France I've had to do the same, albeit with fledglings fallen from their nest or having been turfed out therefrom by their parents. The locals shrug their shoulders and leave them to die, mostly because pigeons are a pest.

What I'm saying in a rambling fashion is that yes, I'm 90%vegan, and for the cruelty to animals reason, but there are circumstances when we must take decisions that affect animals whether we like it or not. My examples are tiny, true, but while I eat eggs as little as possible now, for example, were I to have another smallholding I would probably have chickens again. Animal testing I abhor, and is another issue, in the sense that we are animals and I would support testing on our species. The other thing is that, if I can get to Australia, I will, even if it means having the vaccine. I'll try to get an exemption, though conscience is seldom taken as a good enough reason.

P.S. Euan has a good point.

Life is rarely black or white, this or that, or exclusively yes or no. If I lived in a small community of thirty people or so where contact with the outside world was non-existent and raising a small number of grazing animals was essential for survival, I'd probably be a party to it without regard. Communities like that used to cover the planet once upon a time and some can still be found here and there in the remotest pockets of the planet. Living in the developed world as we do where choice avails I guess each of us has the freedom and the responsibility to make our own choices around animal welfare. I praise you for going as far as you do - it's a lot farther than most!

I once killed a bird that looked like it was literally on its last legs. It was significantly injured and couldn't fly. I was about ten at the time and I remember picking up a nearby boulder and dropping it on its head. My aim was terrible and I only made matters worse! I had to do it again and although my aim was accurate the second time, it was an extremely uncomfortable experience. Mercy killing? Tough business!
 
I made the move from vegetarian, almost vegan to full vegan recently.
Then realised things I assumed were vegan were not
Fruit and fibre went
Fruit loaf went
Hot chocolate went
Probably others I've forgotten. Now used up
I feel better for it. Due to the sugar I bet

Found vegan toothpaste.
Still looking for vegan soap and shampoo - not that I use much :)

A neighbour kindly baked us a few biscuits before Christmas. Unlikely they were vegan..

Step daughter has the message, baking us a vegan Christmas cake.

if I went out I would have to be careful not to offend too much.

The dogs are also vegan courtesy of V-Dog. Doing well on it too
 
I made the move from vegetarian, almost vegan to full vegan recently.
Then realised things I assumed were vegan were not
Fruit and fibre went
Fruit loaf went
Hot chocolate went
Probably others I've forgotten. Now used up
I feel better for it. Due to the sugar I bet

Found vegan toothpaste.
Still looking for vegan soap and shampoo - not that I use much :)

A neighbour kindly baked us a few biscuits before Christmas. Unlikely they were vegan..

Step daughter has the message, baking us a vegan Christmas cake.

if I went out I would have to be careful not to offend too much.

The dogs are also vegan courtesy of V-Dog. Doing well on it too

I know some cereals contain honey so I'm always on the look-out for that. But toothpaste, soap and toothpaste? Sounds like I need to up my pre-purchase scanning game!
 
Vegan choc available, therefore hot choc (why not make from cocoa powder with plant milk ? I use Oatleys barista)

We love it :)
 
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We had vegan chocolate this year around Christmas time. What a joyless experience that was.

It's true, vegan chocolate is naff. But Walls Vegan Magnums are a sold 9/10 compared to a Walls 10/10 standard magnums!
 
Tesco did a Vegan Christmas Lunch for two on special order.
The boss saw it and was undeterred by the 30 quid price tag. I wasn't so keen on the price tag, however...

Having consumed it I confess to being very impressed it was wonderful.
Included a bottle of Vegan champagne, 2 little Christmas puds and 2 monster crackers

Recommended
 
Concerning vegan ethical objections to Covid vaccination as raised by the OP, it seems that on the one hand vegans, like @windhoek, & sympathetic others getting closer, like me, are criticised, in some cases vehemently, for refusing the vaccine, yet on the other, even David Attenborough, in his recent Extinction documentary, talks about the causes of recent (& potential future) pandemics being linked almost exclusively to over-intensive meat & dairy production & the loss of biodiversity. As well as the more general yet even more threatening effect the animal food industry has on the enveloping climate catastrophe (including the vast tracts of land devoted to monocultures, such as immense soybean farms - soybeans for animal feed, not Beyond Burgers).

There is endless data now available from highly reputable research (for example, check out the Oxford University stuff), yet no suggestion of government intervention to curb meat & dairy production, & therefore consumption.

Why is this ? I fear it’s because we as a species are addicted to meat & dairy. We’re addicted to a lot of other things - wildly excessive consumerism and transport, for example, and it will likely be the death of us. How do meat eaters feel about their presumably largely unconscious involvement in this unhealthy practice (at a planetary level), I wonder. Do they deny it, reinterpret the data, think it’s ok for them because they only eat expensive organic meat, whatever ?

Addiction is defined as a repetitive engagement in a behaviour causing harm to self & others.

Steak & eggs for breakfast, mate (with apologies to Crocodile Dundee)?
 
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In addition, the government clearly saw fit to keep a whole raft of workers out there in the beginning when things were scary as hell - myself included - so it would be unfair for the government, should they so state, that vegans have a moral duty to be vaccinated. Key workers were, and still are, essential, but there was a time when it was a case of just get on with it regardless of whether you had enough PPE.

The flip side is that the government may well have a moral obligation to come up with a solution for vegans and other groups of people who won't be getting vaccinated for whatever reason once the general population has been vaccinated because there might well be a small but significant size of the population who remain vulnerable to Covid-19. As it stands, I'm probably a lot less vulnerable than a whole chunk of the population. But once they've been vaccinated, I'll then be near the top of people who remain vulnerable. Fwiw, I tweeted to Jason Leitch in a thread whether there are any options for vegans beyond getting vaccinated or simply hoping for the best. I never got a reply.

One solution might be to inject a small controlled dose of the virus and so allow people like me to develop a tolerance to the virus, as it were. I've no idea whether that's possible but I'd be inclined to give it a go - it's probably better than catching it in the street!

Regardless, I'm still set on not getting vaccinated.
 
Concerning vegan ethical objections to Covid vaccination as raised by the OP, it seems that on the one hand vegans, like @windhoek, & sympathetic others getting closer, like me, are criticised, in some cases vehemently, for refusing the vaccine, yet on the other, even David Attenborough, in his recent Extinction documentary, talks about the causes of recent (& potential future) pandemics being linked almost exclusively to over-intensive meat & dairy production & the loss of biodiversity. As well as the more general yet even more threatening effect the animal food industry has on the enveloping climate catastrophe (including the vast tracts of land devoted to monocultures, such as immense soybean farms - soybeans for animal feed, not Beyond Burgers).

There is endless data now available from highly reputable research (for example, check out the Oxford University stuff), yet no suggestion of government intervention to curb meat & dairy production, & therefore consumption.

Why is this ? I fear it’s because we as a species are addicted to meat & dairy. We’re addicted to a lot of other things - wildly excessive consumption and transport, for example, and it will likely be the death of us. How do meat eaters feel about their presumably largely unconscious involvement in this unhealthy practice (at a planetary level), I wonder. Do they deny it, reinterpret the data, think it’s ok for them because they only eat expensive organic meat, whatever ?

Addiction is defined as a repetitive engagement in a behaviour causing harm to self & others.

Steak & eggs for breakfast, mate (with apologies to Crocodile Dundee)?

Yep. And during the first lockdown there was a real sense that the planet was being allowed the opportunity to heal and recover. Sadly, it's hard to disagree with what you - and David Attenborough - say about the damage we're doing to the planet.
 


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