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Brexit: give me a positive effect... IX

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Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
In order to make this argument stand up, you’d have to show that people who dismissed the Remain concerns as ‘project fear’ were nevertheless sufficiently analytical that they looked at the direction of travel of the EU and extrapolated it, not liking what they saw.
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'Project fear' - it was more nonsense soundbites. I'm surprised people listen to this guff. It's like the bus thing.

You don't have to extrapolate with the EU. They had published goals. One of them is to raise the GDP per capita of entrant states like Poland. Once that happens it seems inevitable that some of the Polish migrant labour we rely on, will return to Poland. That's why we have to look elsewhere.
 
SteveS1 said:
Colin is unconcerned with facts like that, or others like the UK had veto.
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The UKIP messaging was brutally simple in its intention which was to harness visceral xenophobia and it worked. Peel Brexit away and examine Farage and Batten’s social media output now: anti-foreigner, pro-Trump, anti-Muslim. Watch their faces when the first plane loads of permanent immigrants arrive from Hong Kong.
 
davidsrsb said:
The Turkish government would have to change its ways drastically to be allowed to join the EU. I don't expect to live to see it happening
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It's another of Barron's fantasies—like the United States of Europe of the Tories replacing EU funding in areas that don't vote Conservative.

Stephen
 
kabayiri said:
'Project fear' - it was more nonsense soundbites. I'm surprised people listen to this guff. It's like the bus thing.

.
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It may not have affected you, but millions of people bought it (and the poster, the bus, the 'exact same benefits', etc.)

Why do you think the leave campaigns used these kinds of propaganda? And spent good money on them? They work(ed), that's why.

You are using the same arguments that tobacco companies use to claim that advertising their products are not aimed at new addicts.

Stephen
 
kabayiri said:
I think we will be forced to look for labour outside of the EU. I


I wasn't really bothered about what motivated other Brexiters. After all, who am I to judge their own personal circumstance?
I favour migration based on what skills we need at the time. I think we will find no shortage of good quality people from the displaced Hong Kong citizens, if they are allowed to leave.
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If we need more skilled labour we should increase training places. If the NHS can deprive other countries of skilled labour instead of training they will continue to do so.
 
Colin Barron said:
As you can see from the Times article Erdogan is on the first step by offering talks with Greece. Not long in EU terms is 10 to 15 years. That is of course assuming the handful of countries who prop up the EU continue to see it as value for money.
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Bit more whataboutery, saves having to deal with your own domestic 'actual' I suppose.
 
stephen bennett said:
It may not have affected you, but millions of people bought it (and the poster, the bus, the 'exact same benefits', etc.)

Why do you think the leave campaigns used these kinds of propaganda? And spent good money on them? They work(ed), that's why.

You are using the same arguments that tobacco companies use to claim that advertising their products are not aimed at new addicts.

Stephen
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I didn't claim that it wasn't clever campaigning. Nor that it wasn't effective.

I just found it very short term in it's thinking. Much like a big chunk of GE campaigning, come to think.
 
Colin Barron said:
If we need more skilled labour we should increase training places. If the NHS can deprive other countries of skilled labour instead of training they will continue to do so.
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Maybe we should. Recent decades of evidence isn't exactly encouraging though. Apprenticeships are not what they were.

I don't see what is wrong with certain countries specializing in producing workers for export. The Phillipines and Nurses is a prime example. They are the biggest exporters of nurses in the world!
 
kabayiri said:
I didn't claim that it wasn't clever campaigning. Nor that it wasn't effective.

I just found it very short term in it's thinking. Much like a big chunk of GE campaigning, come to think.
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Well no shit, Sherlock! It was aimed at people who weren't thinking long term, either.
 
kabayiri said:
I favour migration based on what skills we need at the time. I think we will find no shortage of good quality people from the displaced Hong Kong citizens, if they are allowed to leave.
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What about the s**t ones? Send them on their little boat back out into La Manche?
 
kabayiri said:
I'll give them a wave :)

I've no problem with good Chinese people. I've worked with them for a long time. They achieve excellent academic results, both here and in the USA.
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That made me pause a moment. It made me think of people who say '...it's not you Ahmed, mate, you're alright. It's all the others coming in from where you came from'. Don't know why, but it did. Sorry.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Well no shit, Sherlock! It was aimed at people who weren't thin king long term, either.
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You only get my opinion, I'm afraid :)

Especially, when I'm asked, eg

"How much of a welcome do you anticipate they will be given?"

I took the "you" literally. Sure, a lot of people don't think too deeply when they vote for these things. That's why we end up with rubbish politicians with little more than a gift of the gab.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
That made me pause a moment. It made me think of people who say '...it's not you Ahmed, mate, you're alright. It's all the others coming in from where you came from'. Don't know why, but it did. Sorry.
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I use the phrase good, as in well qualified for the future jobs we will have.

It just extends what we already do with people like graphene researchers.
 
Nick_G said:
How's your Tory Brexit going EV? Any positive effects yet?
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Well, I would have liked to have said 'too early to tell', but the fact that the UK put the green light on the covid jabs weeks before the dithering EU did is a definitive positive and potentially long term one. Let's hope we can keep the pace up.

stephen bennett said:
It may not have affected you, but millions of people bought it (and the poster, the bus, the 'exact same benefits', etc.)

Why do you think the leave campaigns used these kinds of propaganda? And spent good money on them? They work(ed), that's why.

You are using the same arguments that tobacco companies use to claim that advertising their products are not aimed at new addicts.

Stephen
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I don't really like getting involved in this futile bickering about things that are done and dusted, but how are you so sure that 'millions of people bought' the poster, the bus etc?

I would suggest the alternative possibility that millions of people bought 'project fear', and either crumpled to remain, or stayed at home.
 
kabayiri said:
I use the phrase good, as in well qualified for the future jobs we will have.

It just extends what we already do with people like graphene researchers.
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But surely you must recognise that for a lot of people who voted Leave, especially for the 'left behinds', they were voting for a better future for themselves based on more 'opportunities' that wouldn't be filled by immigrants. Whereas what you're suggesting is that, rather than address the skills gap by improving the local skills base, we continue to import it. Are we incapable of producing graduates capable of research into Graphene, and so-on?

Don't misunderstand, I'd like to extend a hand to the Hong Kong people who have been screwed over by the Chinese and abandoned by the UK, and I'm sure they have a lot to offer and we'd be the better for it. I just don't see it playing at all well with those that 'Breaking Point' poster was aimed at.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
That made me pause a moment. It made me think of people who say '...it's not you Ahmed, mate, you're alright. It's all the others coming in from where you came from'. Don't know why, but it did. Sorry.
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Reminded me of another post “I’ve got no problem with the xxxx, worked along side them, played pool with them but what about all that funny stuff they eat”.
 
Colin Barron said:
If we need more skilled labour we should increase training places. If the NHS can deprive other countries of skilled labour instead of training they will continue to do so.
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Totally ignores the fact that skilled labour is very often not the type that is required and when it is, your message is that better jobs are not for the locals. It also supposes that governments will invest in training and education that will cost them, but benefit future administrations - good luck with that.

One of the benefits of EU funded development was getting the local political short termism out of the equation. Yes you can argue that it's our money coming back - but that is to miss the point. The advantage was the commitment to invest longer term without as much threat of derailing or diversion by local politicians.
 
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