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Scottish Politics

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Yeah. I mean it’s not as if, for example, Estonia, Luxembourg and Iceland have been able to survive as independent states with populations very much smaller than that of Scotland.

It's not possible to make direct comparisons to any of the countries you mention because their starting points (in history and also in economic terms) were massively different.

Scotland would certainly survive. However the massive subsidy to its existing lifestyle through fiscal transfers from Westminster would stop and that would surely have a huge impact in all sorts of areas from pensions to provision of health services. Of course after 20 years of hair shirt economics it might well benefit Scotland in the long run, by forcing it to become harder working and more entrepreneurial. As it is, too many years of free money have warped people's sensibilities - otherwise they wouldn't vote in such numbers for an overtly nanny state-ist party.

Fundamentally, I don't see how secession fixes any of Scotland's massive social and economic problems. The SNP have had 13 years with access to extensive powers to try out their ideas, except they don't seem to have any (beyond a bit of social engineering and wokery). What makes anyone think that going it alone with fewer resources would result in a better outcome? Baffles me completely.

As a Scot who has moved away to work three times and back twice in my adult life (currently living in England, as I have every right to do as a British citizen), I sincerely hope that if there is another vote that the SNP don't get away again with excluding a large number of Scots currently living outside of Scotland from participation. The SNP want to end my right to be both Scottish and British. I want the right to have my say in that. It would be dead easy to organise too: my passport shows my place of birth and that should entitle me to a vote.

Fundamentally, I believe that the whole SNP project (which of course began in the Fascist era of ethnic nationalism, and is still rooted in chippy anti-Englishness for all its proponents try to deny it) is a dangerous fantasy that's been allowed to take hold due to irresponsible politicians (not just SNP ones: Labour ones, and Tories as well, from Thatcher onwards have responsibility too). British people north and south of the Border have far more in common, in terms of attitudes, shared history and culture, than what divides us and this nasty brand of nationalism should not be permitted to pervert and distort that in pursuit of some kind of impossible utopian nonsense.
 
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It's not possible to make direct comparisons to any of the countries you mention because their starting points (in history and also in economic terms) were massively different.

Scotland would certainly survive. However the massive subsidy to its existing lifestyle through fiscal transfers from Westminster would stop and that would surely have a huge impact in all sorts of areas from pensions to provision of health services. Of course after 20 years of hair shirt economics it might well benefit Scotland in the long run, by forcing it to become harder working and more entrepreneurial. As it is, too many years of free money have warped people's sensibilities - otherwise they wouldn't vote in such numbers for an overtly nanny state-ist party.

Fundamentally, I don't see how secession fixes any of Scotland's massive social and economic problems. The SNP have had 13 years with access to extensive powers to try out their ideas, except they don't seem to have any (beyond a bit of social engineering and wokery). What makes anyone think that going it alone with fewer resources would result in a better outcome? Baffles me completely.

As a Scot who has moved away to work three times and back twice in my adult life (currently living in England, as I have every right to do as a British citizen), I sincerely hope that if there is another vote that the SNP don't get away again with excluding a large number of Scots currently living outside of Scotland from participation. The SNP want to end my right to be both Scottish and British. I want the right to have my say in that. It would be dead easy to organise too: my passport shows my place of birth and that should entitle me to a vote.

Fundamentally, I believe that the whole SNP project (which of course began in the Fascist era of ethnic nationalism, and is still rooted in chippy anti-Englishness for all its proponents try to deny it) is a dangerous fantasy that's been allowed to take hold due to irresponsible politicians (not just SNP ones: Labour ones, and Tories as well, from Thatcher onwards have responsibility too). British people north and south of the Border have far more in common, in terms of attitudes, shared history and culture, than what divides us and this nasty brand of nationalism should not be permitted to pervert and distort that in pursuit of some kind of impossible utopian nonsense.


I totally agree, I think this is a really well written posting.
Thank you
Neil.
Englishman living in Edinburgh
 
It's not possible to make direct comparisons to any of the countries you mention because their starting points (in history and also in economic terms) were massively different.

Scotland would certainly survive. However the massive subsidy to its existing lifestyle through fiscal transfers from Westminster would stop and that would surely have a huge impact in all sorts of areas from pensions to provision of health services. Of course after 20 years of hair shirt economics it might well benefit Scotland in the long run, by forcing it to become harder working and more entrepreneurial. As it is, too many years of free money have warped people's sensibilities - otherwise they wouldn't vote in such numbers for an overtly nanny state-ist party.

Fundamentally, I don't see how secession fixes any of Scotland's massive social and economic problems. The SNP have had 13 years with access to extensive powers to try out their ideas, except they don't seem to have any (beyond a bit of social engineering and wokery). What makes anyone think that going it alone with fewer resources would result in a better outcome? Baffles me completely.

As a Scot who has moved away to work three times and back twice in my adult life (currently living in England, as I have every right to do as a British citizen), I sincerely hope that if there is another vote that the SNP don't get away again with excluding a large number of Scots currently living outside of Scotland from participation. The SNP want to end my right to be both Scottish and British. I want the right to have my say in that. It would be dead easy to organise too: my passport shows my place of birth and that should entitle me to a vote.

Fundamentally, I believe that the whole SNP project (which of course began in the Fascist era of ethnic nationalism, and is still rooted in chippy anti-Englishness for all its proponents try to deny it) is a dangerous fantasy that's been allowed to take hold due to irresponsible politicians (not just SNP ones: Labour ones, and Tories as well, from Thatcher onwards have responsibility too). British people north and south of the Border have far more in common, in terms of attitudes, shared history and culture, than what divides us and this nasty brand of nationalism should not be permitted to pervert and distort that in pursuit of some kind of impossible utopian nonsense.
We should get a clearer picture of broad political opinion in Scotland on 7 May next year but it does look like it’s moving strongly in favour of the SNP.
 
As a Scot who has moved away to work three times and back twice in my adult life (currently living in England, as I have every right to do as a British citizen), I sincerely hope that if there is another vote that the SNP don't get away again with excluding a large number of Scots currently living outside of Scotland from participation. The SNP want to end my right to be both Scottish and British. I want the right to have my say in that. It would be dead easy to organise too: my passport shows my place of birth and that should entitle me to a vote.
Unlike the brexit vote then, which I seem to remember from another forum enjoys your fanatical support?
 
Boris is doing a better job for the SNP than Thatcher ever did.....
That’s the thing, the SNP were already performing strongly then Boris gets elected, bodging both Brexit and Covid to the extent that the Tory press are already talking about his Party getting rid of him. He’s going to deliver Independence without the SNP lifting a finger. We’d rather he stayed- “Boris, four more years!”.
 
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Unlike the brexit vote then, which I seem to remember from another forum enjoys your fanatical support?

I'm not sure about fanatical: I did vote for Brexit but it was a knife-edge call from my perspective - there are good reasons for it, and good reasons against it. In the end, the hypocritical, fundamentally corrupt nature of the EU as an organisation swung it for me, along with the implications of 'ever closer union' not only as a treaty commitment but also as the guiding principle of the EU's political leadership.

For me, 'ever closer union' is incompatible with the kind of global player Britain needs to be in the coming years. The EU walled garden approach to world trade is unsustainable in my view and Britain had precisely zero chance within the EU of the proper level playing field this country needs - which would require the single market to be extended from goods to services (the majority of our economy) or of seeing proper reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. Cameron's humiliation in attempting to improve our terms only pointed this up in neon lettering. The logical conclusion was that we should leave and take our chances. The behaviour of the EU since the vote (the incompetence of successive Tory administrations notwithstanding) has done nothing to change my view that the right result was delivered.

However I completley acknowledge that are plenty of good reasons - cultural mainly, but also practical - for continued alignment with the nations of Europe. I read (indeed have taught) Latin, and see myself as someone steeped in the culture and mores of westen Christendom and the Enlightenment values that it gave birth to. (Scottish thinkers, incidentally, from David Hulme to Adam Smith, played a significant role in this). I speak reasonable French and German, some Italian (and Mandarin), and have managed teams of people across Europe from southern Spain to the Baltics. I spend a fair amount of my spare time grappling with German poetry, whether it's the pietist texts and Biblical quotations that make up the Bach cantata librettos, or the Romantic poems set to music in the Lieder of Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Wolf. I still have primary responsibility for Southern Europe in the multinational company I work for (which didn't change a jot after Brexit and won't after the end of the transition period). My wife is a non-white, non-European. I'm the opposite of a xenophobe. And I totally get the emotional response of people who feel ripped away from their identity as Europeans.

However I think this is misplaced: we can continue to value our connection to Europe and European values and culture without subscribing to a relatively new (in historical terms) political union where the cards are stacked against us. My call in the end was that the UK, with our maritime history and global perspective, was better out. I appreciate others may have drawn a different conclusion, and I respect the process by which they arrived at their decision. The main thing I was nervous about was how Brexit might be used as a weapon by the SNP.

As to why my opinion on Brexit might matter to the discussion on Scottish nationalism and the validity of my views on that topic: I'm guessing that relates to the sneer campaign waged by those who resent the vote to leave. Some people in this country, it seems, are not democrats and do not respect the outcome of the democratic process.

I can only say that if Scotland does decide to leave then I will respect the decision of my countrymen to do so (idiotic though I would believe it to be) and I'd work for a sensible outcome of any negotiations (which may take some time: a 400 year old political, economic, parliamentary, legal and social union is likely to be much harder to dissolve than a 40 year primarily economic one). I certainly wouldn't involve myself in any petty, anti-democratic nonsense to overturn the vote. Though I can say there's no way on earth I'd ever consider moving back home if that disaster came about.
 
Now there's a man who can explain his logic and reasoning for decision he took. Bravo.

On reflection :) you are very like a few UK individuals who I have met over here. People who will thrive regardless of the environment or obstacles. The problem as I see it is a lot of the folk who went with leave are not applying your circumstances or logic to the process.

I'm not sure about fanatical: I did vote for Brexit but it was a knife-edge call from my perspective - there are good reasons for it, and good reasons against it. In the end, the hypocritical, fundamentally corrupt nature of the EU as an organisation swung it for me, along with the implications of 'ever closer union' not only as a treaty commitment but also the guiding principle of the EU's political leadership.

For me, 'ever closer union' is incompatible with the kind of global player Britain needs to be in the coming years. The EU walled garden approach to world trade is unsustainable in my view and Britain had precisely zero chance within the EU of the proper level playing field this country needs - which would require the single market to be extended from goods to services (the majority of our economy) or of seeing proper reform of the Common Agricultural Programme. Cameron's humiliation in attempting to improve our terms only pointed this up in neon lettering. The logical conclusion was that we should leave and take our chances. The behaviour of the EU since the vote (the incompetence of successive Tory administrations notwithstanding) has done nothing to change my view that the right result was delivered.

However I completley acknowledge that are plenty of good reasons - cultural mainly, but also practical - for continued alignment with the nations of Europe. I read (indeed have taught) Latin, and see myself as someone steeped in the culture and mores of westen Christendom and the Englightenment values that it gave birth to. (Scottish thinkers, incidentally, from Adam Smith to David Hulme played a significant role in this). I speak reasonabe French and German, some Italian (and Mandarin), and have managed teams of people across Europe from southern Spain to the Baltics. I spend a fair amount of my spare time grappling with German poetry, whether it's the pietist texts and Biblical quotations that make up the Bach cantata librettos, or Romantic poems set by to music by Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Wolf ... I still have primary responsibility for Southern Europe in the company I work for (which didn't change a jot after Brexit and won't after the end of the transition period). My wife is a non-white, non-European. I'm the opposite of a xenophobe. And I totally get the emotional response of people who feel ripped away from their identity as Europeans.

However I think this is misplaced: we can continue to value our connection to Europe and European values and culture without subscribing to a relatively new (in historical terms) political union where the cards are stacked against us. My call in the end was that the UK, with our maritime history and global perspective, was better out. I appreciate others may have drawn a different conclusion, but I respect the process by which they arrived at their decision. The main thing I was nervous about was how Brexit might be used as a weapon by the SNP.

As to why my opinion on Brexit matters to the discussion on Scottish nationalism and the validity of my views on that topic: I'm sure that relates to the sneer campaign waged by those who resent the vote to leave. Some people in this country, it seems, are not democrats and do not respect the outcome of the democratic process.

I can only say that if Scotland does decide to leave then I will respect the decision of my countrymen to do so (idiotic though I would believe it to be) and I'd work for a sensible outcome of any negotiations (which may take some time: a 400 year old political, economic, parliamentary, legal and social union is likely to be harder to dissolve than a 40 year primarily economic one). I certainly wouldn't involve myself in any petty, anti-democratic nonsense to overturn the vote. Though I can say there's no way on earth I'd ever consider moving back home if that disaster came about.
 
Hypocritical fundamentally corrupt EU? Don't make me laugh. The current UK government take hypocrisy and corruption to a level I find difficult to believe.
 
Hypocritical fundamentally corrupt EU? Don't make me laugh. The current UK government take hypocrisy and corruption to a level I find difficult to believe.

But at least it's is ours to change should the electorate decide. If there's no way to throw the ****ers out, then it isn't democracy.
 
I can only say that if Scotland does decide to leave then I will respect the decision of my countrymen to do so (idiotic though I would believe it to be) and I'd work for a sensible outcome of any negotiations (which may take some time: a 400 year old political, economic, parliamentary, legal and social union is likely to be much harder to dissolve than a 40 year primarily economic one). I certainly wouldn't involve myself in any petty, anti-democratic nonsense to overturn the vote. Though I can say there's no way on earth I'd ever consider moving back home if that disaster came about.

Thanks for explaining your position which is clear though some of your assumptions, conclusions and view of Britain’s global ambitions seem a little odd to me. Might I ask where outside Scotland you are living.
 
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