The environmental impact of electric cars

[tones]

I found this article very interesting, an attempt to quantify the total impact, including the manufacturing process:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-polestar-lifts-lid-lifetime-ev-emissions

It takes a reasonable sort of mileage before the e-car catches up with the convention petrol-engined model.

 

[robs]

Reasonable being really quite high (!) especially when using a 163g/km fossil fueled car as comparison. Would look a little different if we took 109g/km for example...
Good article especially as the data coming from Polestar, who may or may not be a liitle biased in some of their assumptions.
Would certainly be good to see more 'real' data in this area.
Also the real cost in terms of infrastructure needed to provide all the power for the huge global fleet!
Anyway, seems the decision is already made by our governments.

 

[mikemusic]

Hopefully one day electric will become a no brainer

 

[Vinny]

Hopefully one day electric will become a no brainer

In what respect?

Supply? Not until the world embraces nuclear.

For transport? LOTS of problems there around battery raw materials/battery weight/range etc. etc. etc. etc.

For transport the only way to keep similar flexibility and range to present, would be combustion engines using hydrogen, or electric cars, but driven from fuel cells NOT batteries. Batteries are a totally insane course to follow at numerous levels.

One day the world will wake up.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

I've only quickly skimmed that but it doesn't seem to take account of the environmental impact of fossil fuel production vs. electricity. You can't ignore that if you're looking at whole life impact.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

In what respect?

Supply? Not until the world embraces nuclear.

For transport? LOTS of problems there around battery raw materials/battery weight/range etc. etc. etc. etc.

For transport the only way to keep similar flexibility and range to present, would be combustion engines using hydrogen, or electric cars, but driven from fuel cells NOT batteries. Batteries are a totally insane course to follow at numerous levels.

One day the world will wake up.

I think you may be a little behind where battery technology is. Fuel cells are a far worse choice than batteries, if you're talking hydrogen.

 

[Vinny]

I think you may be a little behind where battery technology is. Fuel cells are a far worse choice than batteries, if you're talking hydrogen.

Not even remotely. I am talking where they could be, where they will be, not where they were or where they are now.

Batteries rely on redox reactions, as do fuel cells, but in a regenerative form, which is totally insane when you figure in the weight of the lightest battery possible, recharge duration, the cost of shifting all that battery around etc. etc. etc. Batteries are the answer from the resolved and realist of today but the lunatic of the future.

A fuel cell is just a tank of hydrogen and some membranes, at the simplest level. True, they are proving to be a HUGE challenge to manufacture - I have friends working in IE (Intelligent Energy) and RR Fuel Cells.........................

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

Not even remotely. I am talking where they could be, where they will be, not where they were or where they are now.

Batteries rely on redox reactions, as do fuel cells, but in a regenerative form, which is totally insane when you figure in the weight of the lightest battery possible, recharge duration, the cost of shifting all that battery around etc. etc. etc. Batteries are the answer from a lunatic.

So what technology do we have currently that is an alternative? Hydrogen fuel cells are a non starter, as most hydrogen comes from fossil fuels and producing it by other methods is less efficient than using that same energy to charge a battery.

Couple the massive benefits to the grid of connecting large quantities of energy storage and you also overcome the issues surrounding peak demand, reducing the requirement to fire up dirty power stations to cope.

 

[Vinny]

Hydrogen fuel cells are a non starter most hydrogen comes from fossil fuels and producing it by other methods is less efficient than using that same energy to charge a battery.

Sorry - BS - cheapest, easiest source of hydrogen BY FAR - renewable energy electrolysing water.

Like I said - get up to speed - stop living in the past, or even the present.

REDOX batteries are fantasy wastes of time, energy and other resources.

 

[calorgas]

A good approach whatever the technology would be to wean Joe Public off unnecessarily large vehicles. Less energy required to move it.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

Sorry - BS - cheapest, easiest source of hydrogen BY FAR - renewable energy electrolysing water.

Like I said - get up to speed - stop living in the past, or even the present.

That's simply untrue. It's a less efficient use of the energy than directly charging a battery. Battery electric vehicles can achieve a well to wheel efficiency of 70-94%, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are 2-3 times worse.

The greener the energy used by both systems, the greater the advantages for BEV over FCV

 

[clivem2]

A worry with lithium for batteries are proposals to mine seabed’s thus destroying them. At least lithium is recyclable but even we must need one heck of a lot of it if we all have EVs. Maybe there’s enough on land to mine...I don’t know.

 

[KrisW]

Lithium is one of the most abundant elements on Earth. The problem with lithium batteries is the anode chemicals: currently Cobalt is the most difficult (and politically contentious) to source.

And yes, the comparison is bogus because it assumes that petrol is created at zero energy cost by magical refining fairies who bear it on their gossamer wings to your local BP. Being (very) generous there's another 50-100g of CO2 emissions per litre between crude and unleaded, plus a transportation emissions cost (very low, about 1-2 grammes per litre). While electricity generation is not loss-free either, the figures given there seem to be for CO2 emissions per kWh usable at the domestic premises.

The biggest issue with EVs is that you have to front-load their emissions by stacking them full of the biggest battery you think you'll ever need. Most people grossly over-provision their EV range. It would be better for the environment to buy a smaller-range electric car and rent an ICE vehicle for the couple of occasions where you need to drive further.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

Lithium is one of the most abundant elements on Earth. The problem with lithium batteries is the anode chemicals: currently Cobalt is the most difficult (and politically contentious) to source.

And yes, the comparison is bogus because it assumes that petrol is created at zero energy cost by magical refining fairies who bear it on their gossamer wings to your local BP. Being (very) generous there's another 50-100g of CO2 emissions per litre between crude and unleaded, plus a transportation emissions cost (very low, about 1-2 grammes per litre). While electricity generation is not loss-free either, the figures given there seem to be for CO2 emissions per kWh usable at the domestic premises.

The biggest issue with EVs is that you have to front-load their emissions by stacking them full of the biggest battery you think you'll ever need. Most people grossly over-provision their EV range. It would be better for the environment to buy a smaller-range electric car and rent an ICE vehicle for the couple of occasions where you need to drive further.

And nobody talks about the use of cobalt in desulphurisation of fossil fuels

Cobalt free batteries will not take that long to arrive, Tesla is planning to use nickel as an alternative for their highest performance batteries.

 

[clivem2]

The biggest issue with EVs is that you have to front-load their emissions by stacking them full of the biggest battery you think you'll ever need. Most people grossly over-provision their EV range. It would be better for the environment to buy a smaller-range electric car and rent an ICE vehicle for the couple of occasions where you need to drive further.

How about EVs setup so you can rent and install range extending batteries for those journeys? Currently the OEMs are guessing at the range their customers need and balance handling characteristics with range too. Configuring your car for local shopping vs holidays could work.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

There are battery technologies being researched which could provide 1000m on one charge.... some day...

The problem is the sheer amount of electricity required to charge electric cars and the implications of this if they become anywhere near as popular as petrol cars. Imagine each car owning household (then there's two/three car families) in virtually every street running 100 electric fires for 4 hours in order to recharge them fully in that time. It could be half that or quadruple that amount depending on range required and whether it's a shopping runabout or "executive car" expected to take you from Newcastle to London and back etc.

How many more power stations/wind turbines etc will that take? Double? Triple what we have now? More? 3 phase 415V fitted in every garage? Mega heavy duty electric plant to be manufactured and fitted in each garage? How much copper needed for all the extra 100Amp cabling etc?

If not to be done at home then imagine the "filling stations" where each vehicle needs to stay on charge for lets say an hour... Huge car park like things I would imagine... that's a lot of building work and a lot of land!

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Lithium is one of the most abundant elements on Earth. The problem with lithium batteries is the anode chemicals: currently Cobalt is the most difficult (and politically contentious) to source.

And yes, the comparison is bogus because it assumes that petrol is created at zero energy cost by magical refining fairies who bear it on their gossamer wings to your local BP. Being (very) generous there's another 50-100g of CO2 emissions per litre between crude and unleaded, plus a transportation emissions cost (very low, about 1-2 grammes per litre). While electricity generation is not loss-free either, the figures given there seem to be for CO2 emissions per kWh usable at the domestic premises.

The biggest issue with EVs is that you have to front-load their emissions by stacking them full of the biggest battery you think you'll ever need. Most people grossly over-provision their EV range. It would be better for the environment to buy a smaller-range electric car and rent an ICE vehicle for the couple of occasions where you need to drive further.

The article also doesn't take into account the possible second-life use of battery packs once the car is scrapped. So, for example, domestic power wall type installations where the fact that the battery is only operating at 75% of its original capabilities is not critical. The more of these we have, also, the less we need backup generation capacity, as Andrew mentions.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

How about EVs setup so you can rent and install range extending batteries for those journeys? Currently the OEMs are guessing at the range their customers need and balance handling characteristics with range too. Configuring your car for local shopping vs holidays could work.

It's consumer driven primarily. Most people feel the need to over specify because the culture change around usage isn't familiar to them.

Providing you have a drive, or charging infrastructure, most electric car drivers start the day with a full tank of fuel, rarely needing to think about visiting a charger. Most cars sit idle all day.

There's always use cases that do need range or rapid fuelling though. For some battery vehicles that's already here.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

The article also doesn't take into account the possible second-life use of battery packs once the car is scrapped. So, for example, domestic power wall type installations where the fact that the battery is only operating at 75% of its original capabilities is not critical. The more of these we have, also, the less we need backup generation capacity, as Andrew mentions.

That's the main reason there's little battery recycling capacity currently is that the batteries last longer than perceived and frequently go into second life systems.

 

[Andrew L Weekes]

There are battery technologies being researched which could provide 1000m on one charge.... some day...

The problem is the sheer amount of electricity required to charge electric cars and the implications of this if they become anywhere near as popular as petrol cars. Imagine each car owning household (then there's two/three car families) in virtually every street running 100 electric fires for 4 hours in order to recharge them fully in that time. It could be half that or quadruple that amount depending on range required and whether it's a shopping runabout or "executive car" expected to take you from Newcastle to London and back etc.

How many more power stations/wind turbines etc will that take? Double? Triple what we have now? More? 3 phase 415V fitted in every garage? Mega heavy duty electric plant to be manufactured and fitted in each garage? How much copper needed for all the extra 100Amp cabling etc?

If not to be done at home then imagine the "filling stations" where each vehicle needs to stay on charge for lets say an hour... Huge car park like things I would imagine... that's a lot of building work and a lot of land!

With vehicle to grid it requires an additional 20MW (sic) according to the National Grid, even if every car in the UK is electric. That's one decent off shore wind farm.

Without V2G it's gigawatts, but we have plenty of time to do this right. The grid capacity is another one of those issues that's misunderstood. We frequently disable generating capacity, because we can't store the excess, and prices go negative.