yuckyamson
pfm Member
Yes. the AE-1 was f*cking amazing.
Sideways Uni-Pivot Arm, SUPATRAC Blackbird, formerly "Ekos Killer (Price?)"
- Thread starter sonddek
- Start date
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I suppose the question is this: if an arm outperforms another £4000 arm, will the producer realise most profit at £2000, £3000 or £5000? Direct comparison will probably remain outside most people's experience, so maybe price is the best way to signal performance level. Veblen or Marx?
yuckyamson
pfm Member
It's a marketing question that has too many variables to answer. In YOUR opinion the arm is better than the ekos. But if it has no pedigree or brand recognition behind it it doesn't much matter. And don't start with SAT as a comparable, that's the exception, not the rule, and that also launched with the ultimate review from the ultimate publisher.
You have to consider the following:
Is there anything innovative or unique about the design? That would be the marketing 'hook'.
Does it have certain sex appeal?
Is it flexible in terms of what it could be installed with?
How featured is it? (vta, azimuth, sra, alignment all on the fly or....?)
How well built is it? (the public will ultimately know)
And then what branding can be applied. Is there a future larger family of products or is this just a one-off. Etc.
A good starting point is Hana. They made great carts, with a history of oem, under their own name, for very cheap. They sold and got well reviewed. Then they introduced a pricier guy. Now they have earned the right to an expensive one.
It's too tough to answer "if my tonearm kicks an ekos arse how much can I charge?" because there are too many unknowns. But the simple answer is that until you've established a brand, you have to start much, much cheaper.
You have to consider the following:
Is there anything innovative or unique about the design? That would be the marketing 'hook'.
Does it have certain sex appeal?
Is it flexible in terms of what it could be installed with?
How featured is it? (vta, azimuth, sra, alignment all on the fly or....?)
How well built is it? (the public will ultimately know)
And then what branding can be applied. Is there a future larger family of products or is this just a one-off. Etc.
A good starting point is Hana. They made great carts, with a history of oem, under their own name, for very cheap. They sold and got well reviewed. Then they introduced a pricier guy. Now they have earned the right to an expensive one.
It's too tough to answer "if my tonearm kicks an ekos arse how much can I charge?" because there are too many unknowns. But the simple answer is that until you've established a brand, you have to start much, much cheaper.
I don't remember many people putting Rega arms on a Linn. A shame as they work well and the RB1000/RB2000 are bargains.
Absolutely. Johnnie will fix anything. Linn don't want to know, they just want you to buy new stuff, but he'll happily fix your old Ittok or Ekos, rewire it, whatever you want.
linnfomaniac83
I bet you can’t wheelie a unicycle!
I love a lot of Linn’s products, they are properly excellent and despite what some people say, for the most part, they have real longevity... but Linn aren’t great for service support on legacy products and their out of warranty servicing is a little expensive... it never used to be this way, I once blew up my Linn Majik I amplifier and the repair was £150... my amp had a couple of blemishes so I enquired about the cost of replacing the affected panels... no charge, I essentially got a new amp, and with a rather decent phono stage thrown in too (my amp was originally a line level version). Another good deed was when I bought a cosmetically challenged LK100, I called to enquire about availability and pricing of a new face panel... Laura Smith took my call, she asked for my details including my address and said she’d get back to me, about half hour later, she called and told me a new one was in the post, free of charge, great service. That changed when the management changed.
On Johnnie, he’s a legend, I would hold absolutely no fear about buying one of his own products, it will be well made and he will look after you in the unlikely event of a problem arising.
Beobloke
pfm Member
Presumably you’re not aware that, when it comes to the service, repair or upgrade of pretty much any arm you care to mention, Johnnie at Audio Origami is generally considered to be one of the best there is?
david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
Given we dont know what arm the OP is discussing, what has that got to do with anything?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Thanks - that was a really helpful answer, lots of considerations and a vote for coming in cheaper to start with rather than Veblen from kick-off.
In response to specific questions you raised:
Q: Is there anything innovative or unique about the design? That would be the marketing 'hook'.
A: Yes, the bearing is not quite like any other bearing I've seen. It is a unipivot but the point points away from the stylus in order to oppose stylus drag.
Q: Does it have certain sex appeal?
A: the cleverness of the bearing may appeal to an engineering-minded person, but the USP has to be the sound: I get frisky every time I listen.
Q: Is it flexible in terms of what it could be installed with?
A: It will be drop-in on Linn, Rega, SME mounts. It should be light enough for mounting on a Sondek or other suspended deck.There should be no problem with a variety of lengths too.
Q: How featured is it? (vta, azimuth, sra, alignment all on the fly or....?)
A: VTA but not on the fly, azimuth on the fly, although a steady hand needed on suspended decks, alignment by the standard method of two slots.
Q: How well built is it? (the public will ultimately know)
A: The design requires no precision engineering at all and should last forever without any significant maintenance spend. The build quality is therefore mostly a question of finish.
Q: And then what branding can be applied. Is there a future larger family of products or is this just a one-off. Etc.
A: Options for different wand materials and convenient adjustment controls are there as with any other arm. It is the bearing design which makes it work distinctively. If a patent is granted it could be licenced to other arm makers.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
This arm is designed so that no specialist maintenance is necessary. It should last forever without degradation of performance. There is no lube. There are no gimbals/races. It is a type of stabilised uni-pivot which is impervious to wear of the spike.
Darren L
Egalitarian
What tonearm is this ?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Darren L
Egalitarian
Thanks, interesting, though I can't quite picture a sideways unipivot, I assume you are currently using a prototype ?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Correct. It's on one of my Garrard 301s currently with a nearly 40-year-old AT95. No right to be giving this much pleasure with such a basic cartridge. I have also listened to it on Technics 1210 mk V, and with a Shure M97xE and an AT OC9 mk II. Results are consistently very good - gobsmacking actually. Not sure needle drops can do it justice, but it's a good starting point.
This looks very interesting. Looking forward to hearing more about it.
yuckyamson
pfm Member
sonddek,
Okay so before going further I'd like to state that I'm just offering my opinion....and while I have significant experience in hifi and in business and to a certain degree the hifi business, I do not have a resume or history as a consultant or the like. That being said, I'm happy to offer more significant responses below, because I think this warrants it.
tl;dr please take this with a grain of salt.
**this doesn't really count as an innovation per se. In, the end it's still a unipivot. It may be a unique unipivot but that's like saying "this engine is a unique flat 6 because...." at the end of the day, it has a certain amount of inventiveness and may very well be patentable (which really isn't that hard tbh), which helps, but it doesn't really hurdle into something revolutionary. That being said, it's a tried and true approach, loved by many, and a good start on a pitch for an arm. To some degree, the buyer's mind actually cares about 3 peaks;
Type? (bearing, linear tracking, unipivot, etc.) Unipivot ------------> Works with? (sprung, american, brit)---------> Brit/sprung-------------> price? (self explanatory) ----------> sold or pass.
Everything else kind of fits in there somewhere. How does it look? Effective mass/paring with carts compliances? and, of course, reviews. This is the most critical factor. Reviews, however, will be totally contingent on the already mentioned factors, namely, price. If people think there is a bargoon, they will jump at it. IMO.
The sound can only be relied upon via testimonial from unbiased parties, like reviewers, or owners blathering on about it. Before that the best thing to do is make sure it looks great with the same performance it has at present without increasing it's manufacturing price. This is a visual design element. Tekton loudspeakers would likely sell 5x quantities if they had a proper industrial designer refining the coffins they put out for sale in various forms for various cemeteries. This is simply a matter of taste. What decks is it going to mate with and how best to visually manipulate the arm to look great? That just takes a good designer.
Then it should be offered at 9" & 12" so long as it doesn't inhibit costs or quality control. That way you can keep it simple.
Perhaps one of the things to consider is some kind of alignment bits with the arm. I know it sounds obvious but I believe many vinyl lovers are scared off of getting a wally-tractor (or whatever it's called) or the like is because it's just a bit too much money to do so relative to the rest. Think of it, if you're spending $20k on your set-up, another $400 on an alignment jig isn't so difficult. But if you're spending $4,000.00 or less (as most of us are) on your overall vinyl set-up, swallowing another $400 makes one just want to either rely on the dealer (which often aren't that reliable particularly in NA), or, just live with whatever shortcomings it has. This situation always leaves uncertainty in the mind of the owner/listener. If the arm manufacturer included some kind of foolproof guide, even if it requires a bit of doing, but the tools are supplied and the steps are follow-able, this would help a great deal. Also there's a lot about azimuth, the "mirror method" does not work. If you can have a succinct, accurate way of adjusting this arm with supplied tools to dial in all factors for your cartridge's performance and it comes included with the arm, this could put the product a leg-up from the competition. I'm not saying this is easy to design or figure out, as for all I know it might be more costly than building the arm itself. But if it can be supplied that way, it's a major bonus.
I would not repeat this again. I would not allow this thinking to enter your mind. Why? it sounds too good to be true. Even if true, it will be a turn-off to read it, rather than a turn-on. It's like being at an investor pitch meeting and when asked about potential competition the pitcher says, "There are none. We are totally unique." Nobody wants to hear that. Plus I don't believe it's true frankly. All arms are a combination of design & execution. And Execution is about materials, tolerances, manufacturing methods, etc. etc. etc. So please just make sure that whatever is offered is done in what should be a robust, well built way.....and if it doesn't make any difference, than at least do some comparative analysis and figure out the most cost effective vs. performance way and use the peak.
This last point may be the hook itself. If you can offer the arm in the buyer's choice of titanium or coco-bolo tube, or with this wiring or that wiring, (not TOO many options mind you) or 3 different finished woods or metals, this is kind of a nice factor.
I would not license it to other arm makers unless one has a seriously big offer on the table. If it can be manufactured for very little, try to.
I think you should target the Rega 808/Roksan Nima price point. Or RIP Jelco. If you can say, this is the bargain arm find and built the brand around that, you could have a good future going. IMO.
Okay so before going further I'd like to state that I'm just offering my opinion....and while I have significant experience in hifi and in business and to a certain degree the hifi business, I do not have a resume or history as a consultant or the like. That being said, I'm happy to offer more significant responses below, because I think this warrants it.
tl;dr please take this with a grain of salt.
**this doesn't really count as an innovation per se. In, the end it's still a unipivot. It may be a unique unipivot but that's like saying "this engine is a unique flat 6 because...." at the end of the day, it has a certain amount of inventiveness and may very well be patentable (which really isn't that hard tbh), which helps, but it doesn't really hurdle into something revolutionary. That being said, it's a tried and true approach, loved by many, and a good start on a pitch for an arm. To some degree, the buyer's mind actually cares about 3 peaks;
Type? (bearing, linear tracking, unipivot, etc.) Unipivot ------------> Works with? (sprung, american, brit)---------> Brit/sprung-------------> price? (self explanatory) ----------> sold or pass.
Everything else kind of fits in there somewhere. How does it look? Effective mass/paring with carts compliances? and, of course, reviews. This is the most critical factor. Reviews, however, will be totally contingent on the already mentioned factors, namely, price. If people think there is a bargoon, they will jump at it. IMO.
The sound can only be relied upon via testimonial from unbiased parties, like reviewers, or owners blathering on about it. Before that the best thing to do is make sure it looks great with the same performance it has at present without increasing it's manufacturing price. This is a visual design element. Tekton loudspeakers would likely sell 5x quantities if they had a proper industrial designer refining the coffins they put out for sale in various forms for various cemeteries. This is simply a matter of taste. What decks is it going to mate with and how best to visually manipulate the arm to look great? That just takes a good designer.
Then it should be offered at 9" & 12" so long as it doesn't inhibit costs or quality control. That way you can keep it simple.
Perhaps one of the things to consider is some kind of alignment bits with the arm. I know it sounds obvious but I believe many vinyl lovers are scared off of getting a wally-tractor (or whatever it's called) or the like is because it's just a bit too much money to do so relative to the rest. Think of it, if you're spending $20k on your set-up, another $400 on an alignment jig isn't so difficult. But if you're spending $4,000.00 or less (as most of us are) on your overall vinyl set-up, swallowing another $400 makes one just want to either rely on the dealer (which often aren't that reliable particularly in NA), or, just live with whatever shortcomings it has. This situation always leaves uncertainty in the mind of the owner/listener. If the arm manufacturer included some kind of foolproof guide, even if it requires a bit of doing, but the tools are supplied and the steps are follow-able, this would help a great deal. Also there's a lot about azimuth, the "mirror method" does not work. If you can have a succinct, accurate way of adjusting this arm with supplied tools to dial in all factors for your cartridge's performance and it comes included with the arm, this could put the product a leg-up from the competition. I'm not saying this is easy to design or figure out, as for all I know it might be more costly than building the arm itself. But if it can be supplied that way, it's a major bonus.
I would not repeat this again. I would not allow this thinking to enter your mind. Why? it sounds too good to be true. Even if true, it will be a turn-off to read it, rather than a turn-on. It's like being at an investor pitch meeting and when asked about potential competition the pitcher says, "There are none. We are totally unique." Nobody wants to hear that. Plus I don't believe it's true frankly. All arms are a combination of design & execution. And Execution is about materials, tolerances, manufacturing methods, etc. etc. etc. So please just make sure that whatever is offered is done in what should be a robust, well built way.....and if it doesn't make any difference, than at least do some comparative analysis and figure out the most cost effective vs. performance way and use the peak.
This last point may be the hook itself. If you can offer the arm in the buyer's choice of titanium or coco-bolo tube, or with this wiring or that wiring, (not TOO many options mind you) or 3 different finished woods or metals, this is kind of a nice factor.
I would not license it to other arm makers unless one has a seriously big offer on the table. If it can be manufactured for very little, try to.
I think you should target the Rega 808/Roksan Nima price point. Or RIP Jelco. If you can say, this is the bargain arm find and built the brand around that, you could have a good future going. IMO.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Thanks for your interesting and extensive advice, all noted and much agreed.
I think the advantage of the design over traditional unipivots is significant. The arm does not roll around its own axis and the oscillating drag of the stylus does not cause the suspension point to scrub. The unipivot isn't bearing any weight either.
I think the advantage of the design over traditional unipivots is significant. The arm does not roll around its own axis and the oscillating drag of the stylus does not cause the suspension point to scrub. The unipivot isn't bearing any weight either.
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
As you know, I've had a parallel experience with loudspeakers. In fact, I think one of the longest running threads in PFM was titled Pricing of and Demand for Small Loudspeakers or something like that. I started that thread to gauge whether I should commercialise the E-IX. The Ergo brand had no cachet, and there is nothing particularly innovative about the E-IX - except that it sounds pretty damn good for something that is so small and compact.
In the end, I worked out that I'd have to sell the E-IX for more than twice the market was prepared to pay, and that's before we include shipping and packaging costs from New Zealand. Getting it closer to the target market and permitting someone (orangeart) to make kits was a better solution. I did not need to sell any loudspeakers to make a living, but the accountant in me reminds me that time, effort and risk must be correctly priced if I did not want to suffer any losses.
So, not withstanding I've lost count of how many pairs of E-IXs are out there or how well loved they are, what people are prepared to pay is going to be dictated by your brand equity. I'm willing to bet Naim, ATC and the likes can easily sell the E-IX at the price I expected. I know I or Stefan can't.
I can only wish the OP the best of luck with his tonearm.
yuckyamson
pfm Member
Yes James, makes perfect sense. Another issue is obviously economies of scale, manufacturing experience and cost effective synergies, and the time and financial costs of building a distribution pipeline. Some products can be "started up" into companies. Many cannot. What a tonearm (as a starting product for a company) has going for it, are either a) Low costs of manufacture, or, b) low costs to ship. If the first hurdle can be crossed successfully (along with marketing, look, and quality--your E-IX is a great example of what it means to have a 'great' product), then it might stand a chance. I mean on here as another example I believe the guys at tigerpaw and a few other companies...."tangerine"?....I got lost...all got a start by making LP12 products and now they have fairly full lines and aren't so far from having their own complete TT. Teddy Pardo started by building naim power supplies.
A tonearm isn't a bad place to start.
A tonearm isn't a bad place to start.