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Scottish Politics

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JimmyB said:
I don't think that helped your cause there, both sides are equally happy to avoid any substance and proper discussion.
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Whatever you say. Fact is, I'm comfortable in the knowledge I am happy to see a case for independence when one is made and happy to discuss the subject properly.

I think it's possible what you haven't grasped about my opinion is, whether Scotland is a deficit or not to the UK makes no difference to me. I value the UK for the relationship between its people, I don't care if England factually subsidises the rest, I'm all for it if that is really the case. You and others may not agree with my opinion on that, but it's nothing for people to become nasty about. It's not like I'm saying "I hate Scots, you're a drain on England, now bugger off and have your independence". Perhaps I'd get a better reaction if I did take that view?

I understand there is no way of getting through to the hardline nationalists and that's the same the world over, such people won't ever make a case for independence because for them it's simply an emotional thing of wanting to get away from England, they'll accept whatever happens because it's worth it. Unfortunately, the tory party has given fuel to these people, similar to how the tories created the conditions for brexit with their policies of austerity and cuts.

Let's hope the entitled-to-rule tories can be persuaded to agree to a referendum, though I'm still waiting on even an inkling from the nationalists here of how the SNP will manage that when dealing with people prepared to flout international law. Then we'll see what a majority of Scots think, rather than a small minority of the emotional types posting on pfm. If it's independence then I wish you the best of luck.
 
ff1d1l said:
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Your point is?
 
Hugh,

It's been said by others but worth pointing out, voting intentions in an election are not the same as in a yes/no referendum.
 
Oh the irony - the poll is so close to 52/48 - which absolutely wasn’t a majority according to the usual suspects in the EU Referendum.
 
Hard remainders, hard nationalists- well, there’s a third category- the hard of thinking. The graphic above isn’t ‘voting intention’ it records the actual vote in the last General Election. You might have a strong attachment to a fantasy of how you’d like the world to be but the reality is somewhat different.
 
It does seem a bit odd that with SNP taking less than half the vote but 80% of the seats that FPTP somehow manages to be the sum of all evil for the UK overall but perfectly decent north of the border.
 
thebigfredc said:
Oh the irony - the poll is so close to 52/48 - which absolutely wasn’t a majority according to the usual suspects in the EU Referendum.
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I wouldn't personally want independence to go ahead on such a slim margin. It was lunacy for Brexit and it'd be lunacy for Scottish independence.
 
thebigfredc said:
It does seem a bit odd that with SNP taking less than half the vote but 80% of the seats that FPTP somehow manages to be the sum of all evil for the UK overall but perfectly decent north of the border.
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That's the voting system imposed by Westminster. For the Scottish parliament there is PR, and despite a similar level of support for the SNP they don't quite have an outright majority (although they might after then next election).
 
TheDecameron said:
Hard remainders, hard nationalists- well, there’s a third category- the hard of thinking. The graphic above isn’t ‘voting intention’ it records the actual vote in the last General Election. You might have a strong attachment to a fantasy of how you’d like the world to be but the reality is somewhat different.
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Yes, I know.

A better example of hard of thinking is you (apparently) being unable to work out the meaning of my earlier post. How people vote in an election does not show how they would vote in a yes/no referendum.
 
I'd love to see PR nationally but the Tories (esp) and Labour will never agree to it. The only two countries in Europe with FPTP systems are UK and Belarussia. That tells you something.
The system for the Scottish Parliament was set up with a particular type of PR that almost makes it impossible for any party to have an overall majority.
This was done to hobble the SNP.. happily Labour and Tories are now electoral poison. Doubtless the Tories will scheme to take back control in other ways i.e. the internal market bill.
 
Anyway, getting to this 53% / 47%.

If the tories agree to a referendum on Scottish independence I expect there will be a requirement for a supermajority of 2/3's of the vote for any change to the status quo.
 
Some of the more savvy Scottish nationalists recognise that the current political landscape, characterised by the contrast in Westminster, is their best opportunity for securing a victory in an independence referendum in the short to medium term because, as seems likely, the prospect of a Labour government for all of the UK reduces the dichotomy and may even lead to a revival of Labour north of the border.
 
Colin L said:
I'd love to see PR nationally but the Tories (esp) and Labour will never agree to it. The only two countries in Europe with FPTP systems are UK and Belarussia. That tells you something.
The system for the Scottish Parliament was set up with a particular type of PR that almost makes it impossible for any party to have an overall majority.
This was done to hobble the SNP.. happily Labour and Tories are now electoral poison. Doubtless the Tories will scheme to take back control in other ways i.e. the internal market bill.
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Best formula is-
Constituency vote: SNP
Regional List vote: Green or List-only pro-independence Party
 
Colin L said:
The system for the Scottish Parliament was set up with a particular type of PR that almost makes it impossible for any party to have an overall majority.
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Labour designed it with the view that the SNP would never be able to get an outright majority i.e. to ensure there was never a mandate for independence, and thinking they could always work with the Tories to block it. I don't think they ever considered that their vote might collapse the way it has though, and the SNP have had an outright majority in the Scottish Parliament in the past. It'll be interesting to see if they can manage that again in the next election.
 
droodzilla said:
Labour's kamikaze mission in Scotland shows no sign of stopping:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...ws-hurting-scotland-says-keir-starmer-2974413
https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...-nations-pulling-different-directions-2974414

It's all so tin-eared: does Starmer really think this kind of rhetoric will resonate and win back Scottish voters?
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Their difficulty is that when they campaign in Scotland against Independence , they look the same as the Tories. You have to remember that all those people who used to vote Labour, now vote SNP and preaching Unionism at them will just get turn them off. It’s become much more acute because these large numbers of voters will look at Johnson’s criminally incompetent government and think “union with that?”.
 
Labour and the Tories do more talking about independence than the SNP do. It appears to be their only anti-SNP argument.
 
TheDecameron said:
Their difficulty is that when they campaign in Scotland against Independence , they look the same as the Tories. You have to remember that all those people who used to vote Labour, now vote SNP and preaching Unionism at them will just get turn them off. It’s become much more acute because these large numbers of voters will look at Johnson’s criminally incompetent government and think “union with that?”.
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Yes, that's what I was getting at. Labour doesn't have to accept the argument for independence but, at the very least, it should show some comprehension of what's driving it. At the moment it looks like Labour is just burying its head in the sand, and hoping the issue will go away.
 
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