hi fi and home cinema integation?

[Mr Pig]

Do any Fishies have any experience/advice please?

Yes. Forget surround sound and run your movies in stereo.

We've had a full surround system, the rear speakers are still on the walls in that room, but it's just stereo now. Why? Because quality trumps quantity and the projector and Isobariks in the other room demolished it.

Where did surround sound come from? It was originally designed for cinemas, where it makes sense. A very large room with people siting all over it. So if you are sitting to the far left and the sound is stereo it sounds like the voices are coming from the speaker on the left. The center speaker puts the voices in the middle of the screen for everyone in the hall. Likewise a dedicated low frequency channel makes sense if you're running a multi speaker installation with the big subs under the stage and main speakers beside the screen.

In a typical domestic system none of this makes sense. Stereo speakers have been putting voices in the middle for decades so you need a center speaker because?.... And unless you deliberately choose to run speakers that cannot produce bass, you don't need a sub either. Oh yeah, the rears. Or the 'to the sides' in most living rooms. Not a lot comes out of those and you do not miss it if the rest is good.

And you're splitting you speaker budget at least six ways instead of two and trying to get multiple different speakers to integrate properly instead of two identical ones. Think about that. Would you run a stereo system with two odd speakers? But home cinema systems do that as the norm.

Same with the electronics. Instead of two good channels you split your budget between six, plus the extra processing.

Our projector isn't even a very good one but, with the sound coming through the Isobariks, it blows people away. I was going to say it's as good as the cinema but it's actually better. You're not in a huge hall so the sound fills the room better, the sound quality is better and you can pick the volume! There is nothing about the cinema sound or picture that you miss.

If you have a good stereo then surround sound is irrelevant. Get the projector and enjoy the movies in good old stereo.

 

[LostAtSea]

Our Sony 4k runs its headphone output into the tape input of a Quad 34/306 then onto B&W DM302's, however the tv/listening room is only 4m by 5m.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

Yes. Forget surround sound and run your movies in stereo.

We've had a full surround system, the rear speakers are still on the walls in that room, but it's just stereo now. Why? Because quality trumps quantity and the projector and Isobariks in the other room demolished it.

Where did surround sound come from? It was originally designed for cinemas, where it makes sense. A very large room with people siting all over it. So if you are sitting to the far left and the sound is stereo it sounds like the voices are coming from the speaker on the left. The center speaker puts the voices in the middle of the screen for everyone in the hall. Likewise a dedicated low frequency channel makes sense if you're running a multi speaker installation with the big subs under the stage and main speakers beside the screen.

In a typical domestic system none of this makes sense. Stereo speakers have been putting voices in the middle for decades so you need a center speaker because?.... And unless you deliberately choose to run speakers that cannot produce bass, you don't need a sub either. Oh yeah, the rears. Or the 'to the sides' in most living rooms. Not a lot comes out of those and you do not miss it if the rest is good.

And you're splitting you speaker budget at least six ways instead of two and trying to get multiple different speakers to integrate properly instead of two identical ones. Think about that. Would you run a stereo system with two odd speakers? But home cinema systems do that as the norm.

Same with the electronics. Instead of two good channels you split your budget between six, plus the extra processing.

Our projector isn't even a very good one but, with the sound coming through the Isobariks, it blows people away. I was going to say it's as good as the cinema but it's actually better. You're not in a huge hall so the sound fills the room better, the sound quality is better and you can pick the volume! There is nothing about the cinema sound or picture that you miss.

If you have a good stereo then surround sound is irrelevant. Get the projector and enjoy the movies in good old stereo.

I don't know where to start with this really, other than disagreeing with practically all of it.

 

[diybry]

Mr Pig, an interesting view, which I hadn't really considered. I'm thinking I'll get a projector first and see how it goes.
But this raises a further point, and that is speech clarity on films, which is a real gripe. If I don't have the subtitles on, I find I'm constantly straining to hear dialogue, (listening in stereo through the 250 and kef r500s) so not ideal. So the question is- does use of a surround sound processor, say 5.1, improve speech clarity? My logic, (not based on any facts, so maybe wrong!) Is that film soundtracks are probably mixed for use with a centre speaker, through which most speech would be reproduced, so use of a decoder and centre speaker should improve speech clarity? After all, speech clarity seems ok in cinemas, which assumably have centre speakers?
I'd be interested in people's practical experience of using /not using surround sound in the same system and the technical reason for this lack of clarity if we have any experts on line

 

[Del monaco]

For a while I used an Onkyo 608 as the hub for my hifi and AV, a surprisingly successful venture that produced good sound with both systems. I have a B&O TV now with superb in built sound system so my hifi is again separate. I feel that AV equipment sometimes gets undue criticism as a convergence hub but it can be good quality and convenient.

 

[wd40addict]

A modern receiver will probably have the ability to adjust the centre level independently. Also buried in the Blu-ray player settings you'll often find an 'enhance speech' setting which also boosts the centre.

I have always been happy with a phantom centre and domestic considerations mean this is unlikely to change. I also have no need for a subwoofer as my fronts have quite enough bass already.

The advantage of using your existing stereo kit for the front is that you get the sound quality you know and love together with sound from the rear for a more immersive experience.

With no physical centre speaker and no subwoofer my system is really 4.0 which, to take Suffolk Tony's point, means the SQ Quadraphonic LP of DSOTM sounds really good

 

[Amber Audio]

Up to 70% of a soundtrack is mixed to use the centre channel, I read the same stuff over and over about just using the L/R speakers and forget a dedicated centre, called a pseudo/phantom centre mode, I have always found having a proper centre worthwhile, ideally you want the same centre as your fronts so another R500, that’s usually domestically and financially disagreeable, so dedicated centres came about as well as sound programs built into AV amps that simulate a centre for speech.

We are all different, most of my acquaintances cannot understand my 2 channel hobby, many hifi guys seem to dislike or write off multi channel/surround sound systems, that can be perfectly valid so 100% of your budget goes into your primary hobby, done properly though even a modest 5.1 system brings an extra element to your audio, as was said up thread Blu Ray concerts or 5.1 mixes, also it can be a family occasion, movie nights or games sessions, Xbox and PS4 are fab in multiplayer mode on a big screen in surround really adds to atmosphere and audible cues the bad guys are behind to the right. Also an AV Receiver with App/Remote can be much easier for the family to get to grips with, just one thing to negotiate with all sources routing to it/through it.

 

[essgee]

Alan Parson's quad 4.0 mix of DSOTM is probably the best example of a reason for more than basic stereo 2.0. But it can be difficult to find high quality sources of other material. Starting from stereo 2.0 and aiming for some form of "cinema" sound can be quite a task.

 

[Mr Pig]

...does use of a surround sound processor, say 5.1, improve speech clarity?

Non necessarily. There can be a few reasons for speech to be buried. On a lot of modern movies and TV shows it sounds like that because they've mixed it like that. It's a very common complaint.

You would think that having a dedicated center channel would fix this but it doesn't seem to work that way. I've struggled to hear dialog in the cinema. Even at home where you can turn up the center channel relative to the others it's still not great. A bit like tone controls, if he sound is fundamentally wrong a tweak on the amp isn't going to fix it.

I've found that whether the sound is stereo or surround doesn't make any difference to this. If the dialog track is too low it will be low irrespective of whether the sound is being output in surround or stereo. It's the same source mix.

The very first surround system we had was a cheap one-box job, DVD player with built in amp, five tiny satellites and a passive sub but it sounded quite good. We upgraded to a cheap Yamaha surround amp and Kef speakers Should've been a lot better but one of the ways it was worse was dialog, harder to make out. The sound in general was softer and less well defined. The amp was replaced by a TOL Yamaha one, which is still in that room running a single pair of B&W 705s, and it improved the surround sound a lot. However..the best sound, including clarity of dialog, by far is the big stereo in the other room. Blue-Ray player into a Rega DAC, Meridian amps and Isobariks.

Crap dialog is much more of a problem on modern movies and TV shows. For some reason it seems to be worse on Blue-Rays than on DVDs which I don't understand but it's fundamentally in the way it's mixed.

 

[Helen Bach]

been running hifi and AV on the same stereo system for years. Works for us. On films (from the TiVo system) the sound levels would be all over the place with 5.1 (necessitating continual volume adjustment, thank G*D for remotes), but with a much simpler (and cheaper) decoder, things are much better. We run two stereo amplifiers into floorstanding Ushers. And a bonus is that I can listen to the radio (BBC Radio3) on TiVo with excellent quality.

 

[AnilS]

I have a Sony 2400ES doing home cinema with monitor Audio S8 upfront and centre speaker.
Mordaunt short CS1 for rears giving 6.1. Includes a MS sub too.

Here's the thing, I also have a Cyrus 3 and q power in the rack.

When not it home cinema mode, I pull the banana plugs out (singles) and reconnect the Cyrus setup (bi amped).

Best of both but appreciate I have rack space.

Although the Sony is excellent, I always found something a little lacking.

Just a thought.

 

[Mr Pig]

Also an AV Receiver with App/Remote can be much easier for the family to get to grips with...

Hahahaha :0) This is the remote for my AV amp. Dead simple! In the other room you press play on the movie and...turn up the volume knob.

..done properly though even a modest 5.1 system brings an extra element to your audio..

Nothing you miss. In a typical livingroom the ONLY thing a surround system has over a high quality stereo is sound from the rear. That's it. And it's like 3D. Seems really cool for about a week then you realize it's not actually any more enjoyable and may in fact be annoying.

Sure, a really high quality surround system is going to be great but it's also going to be feck-off expensive. Instead of two high quality speakers you need six. Same with amplification, plus your processor. Plus you need to get all these different speakers to sound balanced and coherent. Can you imagine trying to get a stereo to sound right with two odd speakers?

Don't get me wrong, I've heard great surround sound systems, genuinely brilliant, but they were not cheap.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

Crap dialog is much more of a problem on modern movies and TV shows. For some reason it seems to be worse on Blue-Rays than on DVDs which I don't understand but it's fundamentally in the way it's mixed.

DVDs/Blurays are mixed for multichannel sound. As with stereo, there are poor examples. But with most this isn't a problem if you've got a well-integrated, high quality centre channel speaker, and have set up your multichannel system properly. Dialogue is not a problem in my system when playing multichannel sources and not downmixing to stereo.

 

[Blackmetalboon]

I ran a 4.0 system for a while, as long as you were sitting centrally to my main speakers, it was fine. Adding a centre speaker really helped to expand the sweet spot to cover every position on my sofa.

 

[Mr Pig]

DVDs/Blurays are mixed for multichannel sound.

Obviously. But what I found was that mumbling, dull speech is primarily a function of the mix itself and it doesn't make much difference how you output it. When we had the multi-channel I remember messing about with the settings, turning up the center, trying different 'modes', etc and it doesn't work. Only to a very limited degree anyway. If the speech is too quiet compared to the other sounds in the mix the amp cannot turn up just the speech. It doesn't work that way. If the other sounds are also on the center channel they are getting turned up too. It's just the same as a bad mix on a CD or record. It doesn't matter what you do with the tone controls, you can't fix it.

What does make a difference is quality of playback. The Isobariks present movies in a level of scale and clarity that makes it much easier to hear what's going on. It's not very often that dialog is a problem. It still happens but it's better than it was on the surround system.

I'm not saying a good surround system can't be just as good, or even better. It could be. What I'm saying is that mumbling dialog is primarily due to the mix and how big a problem it is comes down to factors other than the number of channels you have.

 

[torstoi]

I've had exactly the same issues few years ago and I wanted to go all out with surround speakers, center,
rears and all that jazz.
My room is ~3,5 meters wide and 4,5m long, so my motor screen is 3m..the entire front wall.
I wanted to buy a centre, but an honest cinema specialist told me he wouldn't sell me one as it simply makes no sense in a space that tight...my Yamaha front speakers would do that perfectly and a different brand speaker
(or not dedicated to work with the front speakers would rather ruin it all)
As my Yamahas are non negociable, that was the topic 'center speaker' off from the list.

I have an Oppo Bluray player with the audiophile extention, dedicated power supply for audio,
doubled up it's price from the normal version but compared now..were it not for the outstanding sq, all of the hassle going surround would not make much sense...and THIS is the point where I agree with the naysayers
regarding surround.
Have the surround done right..and rather reduced in quantity, but not quality.
Or, if not rather do it stereo.

My Oppo does the 5.1 room correction location in meters from where you sit and all.
I have NS1000 in the front & NS 1000 in the rear fireing to the ceiling in a 30° angle
so the way to the ceiling and back down to my ear ~equals my distance to the front speakers.

2 Scanspeak 26cm subwoofers & that's it.
Neither center noor surrounds would make any sense in my room I learned.

The main issue having a good sounding blu ray source was that I needed to have the pre amp do the
volume in stereo, but I surely want to put the surround volume up by my Oppo remote
without jumping up and about to my preamp to correct manually all the time.

The solution is something that rarely ever exists.
A source entry into the preamp, that is neither affected by the volume knob noor by anything else.
So, just into the preamp to the source selector...and out to the power amps as all other sources.

As such solution is not yet to be had or rather I did not find one, a Khosmo passive pre with stepped attenuator
is perfect forthis as you can have it made bespoke and one input, 'cinema' is not going via the volume knob but straight out again.

Hence in stereo mode you have absolutely no compromise (stereo the most important to me)
and in cinema you use your front speakers precious value for another task.
I somewhat doubt that truely excellent hifi speakers can be easily topped by a surround solution in the front.
Realy great stereo speakers hardly ever have a dedicated center match, and without being really dedicated to work together...forget about the centre, trust me in this.
Saves you lots of money and trouble.
The Yamahas and many other great stereo speakers create a stage for you with ease,
so put a hook to it & move on..there's plenty of space to shovel money into with cinema..

Beamer..I have a Mitsubishi HC9000, which was their former top model & can be had refurbed to 0 hours by our importer for around 900€..which is what I did.
(New lamp, cleaning and readjustment exctly to factory spec again, i.e. used, but as new)
I only recenty had a look around and checked out how far I would need to go to seriously better this
meaning w/o a light taste of a sidestep, so being better in ALL areas
and realized I'd need to put about 3K € in a new JVC to achieve this.
I'll do this in a while for sure, but for now it's great as it is.

I beamed to a white wall with the 9000 for a while until I got a screen.
That sounds a no-go...and I can hear the 'uuuh----aaargh' noise of the surround fraction,
but..due the quality of the 9000 it's actually not bad.
It's a 3 meter wide picture with already great resolution..I wouldn't have swapped for any LCD whichever size in that state already.

Next significant step up was the screen..I took the Italian made relatively new 'Black Horizon'
The texture consisting of micro triangles simply swallowes away any light coming from the side,
and only 'accepts' light directly from the front...ie the beamer ..which makes daylight from windows much less of an issue.
The contrast enhancing of the black horizon really bombs you away.
This screen is a blast, I simply love it.
I had the cine grey for testing a while before...also a great screen for sure.
But if you can go the extra mile, head for the black horizon w/o any doubt.

That is the bigger step before a new beamer from the Mitsu 9000 (and alike) stage of quality.
From todays beamers I'd go for a JVC...tested a few,,but - as I said...
around the 2000€ region in the JVC there was still things in the picture where I liked better what my HC9000 did,
so ultimately did not prefer the JVC, would have been a sidestep costing 2K..not the best idea.

The JVC that costs around 3K was better then my Mitsubishi in all aspects, which is in some way a tribute to how good the Mitsubishi was by then..and still is.
Ahh, and I need blu ray resolution...my tip is don't get cought up in that 4K bs too much just yet,
I'm not buying media for 30€ or even 60€ bc 4K..that is simply nuts.
Blu ray resolution is absolutely fine to me, I'm not paying a premium for any 4K tags on items,
in a while you'll get all the 4K for free ..the prices come down as always and until then I just sit content.
(the 3000€ JVC will be capable of 4K, not that I need it but the beamer simply is considerably better with blu rays the same.)
But there's no hurry for a new beamer..with the HC9000 and a great screen it's an absolute pleasure to watch movies..and particularly restored old material. (The older the movie the better it is often. Don't tell anyone.)

I hope that helps.

 

[Amber Audio]

For anyone getting put off trying an AV receiver due to complexity/remote and family not cottoning on. The newer ones are all voice controlled/App controlled these days, I can't remember the last time we used a physical remote for our AV systems apart from the Sky Q one, even that powers on the telly/AV Amp and does volume control and speech if you want to use it.

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[simonj]

I'd recommend the Denon x3600, it has pre-outs (unlike the x2600) so you can easily integrate it with a HiFi amp, it also has 2 HDMI's out so if at a later point you want to drive a TV & PJ you have the option.. As said above, very easy to setup and use these days, just plug it all in and let the auto calibration mic do the rest..

 

[Mr Pig]

Ahh, and I need blu ray resolution...my tip is don't get cough up in that 4K bs too much just yet...

Resolution is like 3D and other tag lines that largly exist to sell more boxes. Every decade or so 3D gets rolled out, it dies a death and gets put back in the box until everyone forgets how big a waste of time it was. Or 4K billions and billions of resolutions despite that fact that few of the TV shows you watch are shown in it and none of the great movies you love!

But they need you to have a reason to replace the perfectly good TV you already have, and people fall for it. They don't stop to consider that resolution is only one factor in how good a picture is or that age sixty and sitting twelve feet away they couldn't even see the difference if there was one!

 

[AndyU]

Ime the centre speaker is vital to a good av experience. Pretty much all dialogue comes exclusively from the center channel; if you listen just in stereo there’s no way two listeners can hear the dialogue correctly - it will pan to whichever side they are on. Left, right and rear speakers are mostly for effects, bullets, screeches and music, and subs are for earthquakes if that kind of thing appeals to you. But the the center channel carries the dialogue, and if you like movies where the dialogue is important, then it’s worth having for sure.