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The John Westlake/Lakewest MDAC/FDAC, VFET and Detox

I would like:

- to see more constructive suggestions
- that all contributors reflect that the best way to achieve something is not to pour fuel on the flames
- that we use our collective energy and resources to contribute to a positive outcome
- that we work with - and not against - Mr. Westlake (really, there is no viable alternative)

I read all posts and am not unaware of what has been going on. I am also a potential VFET customer so have considerable financial commitment myself.

So, can I ask that we all take a few moments to consider how to achieve what we all desire before posting again...?

Constructive comments and suggestions welcomed. Thank you.
 
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This is where there's some division.

1) Some of us are down a relatively small amount and are therefore more able to believe there's no point flogging a well and truly very dead horse.

2) Others are down a significant amount - especially VFET investors. It's understandable they won't want to let go.

1)'s feel like venting occasionally; 2)'s need to encourage John and cling onto hope.
 
Thanks Clive.

Personally, even if I was only in for fifty quid I'd still wish to see a positive outcome so I'd still be in your second division. Nothing else would make sense to me.

I approached this as a speculative investment and, yes, it's certainly meeting that expectation. Mentally, I wrote off the money a long time ago. But as long as this thread continues, there is hope.

Anyway, we all have our own opinions and perspectives and I respect yours.
 
Maybe an alternative interpretation is that when you are being constantly kicked, you remove the protagonists from the unfortunately-long queue to limit the pain...? Of course, all actions have consequences and I understand your point.

When an eminent audio designer openly admits that his motivation is affected by the criticism levelled, surely that's a time to reflect on what is actually being achieved.
 
lets all be a bit honest here, if you were offered your money back, who honestly would wish to consider waiting any longer than we already have ?, no need to reply as this is not an option but just humour me and ask yourself

the biggest positive I can see with John partnering up with someone with proven real world project management and manufacturing experience is the fundamental expectation/assumption we get something manufactured and tested to an acceptable standard, I'm not suggesting John wouldn't do his utmost to achieve this but the last thing anyone wants is John having to deal with possible product failure when trying to develop and complete the rest of his designs.

this should have been blindingly obvious many years ago to John as it was to the rest of us [ some of whom are actually employed in similar environments ] when deadlines were continually missed

its very hard for me to believe that the end product will be appropriately tested before people are screaming for shipment upon design completion if John is the only one taking ownership of the project

this "element" has never been highlighted nor discussed by John, its always been my worry [ based upon postings from John ] that the final product will majestically fly out the doors as soon as a few prototypes are deemed successful by only himself

It is accepted that none of us should be expecting an "Apple" product in terms of testing and warranty support, and to be fair some of the renderings convey John has always valued appearance of end product equally as important as performance. So I hope that if we do end up with another supporting party that design control is not decided by someone else due to costs etc.

p.s. I must also be some kind of Fanboi, as I am still trying to be positive when every fibre of my body is saying something different
 
I would suggest that John concentrates on his design work for the PCB Layout and Chassis . If Jarek is gone and the relationship is beyond repair, we will need to find a suitable programmer to work with John. I would also suggest that a Project Manager oversees both the design and programming work and has overall responsibility for the delivery. This arrangement relies on @JohnW coming to the table and working within such an arrangement. There is a lot of knowledgeable people on these pages and I'm sure some can help and assist with the tasks in hand, but we need cooperation between all the parties.
 
J. Westlake is certainly a designer who should report here in the forum more regularly and in more detail. This is a debt to be discharged, which he is not even close to fulfilling! But when "blaming" him for the lack, one should not confuse cause and effect. Correct is that
- the design process takes more than a long time
- therefore the life circumstances (age, hearing, finances) of the sponsors have changed fundamentally in some cases
- this is not taken into account, financially
- we may also be victims of the turn towards DAC devices without DAC chips

It is also true, however, that we, the supporters, have at least contributed to the delays through a never-ending wish list and by raising the requirements. For example, I am very enthusiastic about the fact that there is an output stage equipped with tubes . This is then enhanced by the perfectionist ideas of J. Westlake about his work...

John was generally quite transparent about his actions and the reasons for them. Also his turning away from the ESS DAC's was transparent. I cannot think of a big outcry in this respect.
 
I've known John personally for many years and recently met with him again. We discussed this issue.

John is a genius in his field but business and handling finances are not his strong suit.
The reason why he is such a remarkable audio designer is partly due to his ability to be obsessively focused on it.
Unfortunately, this obsession had lead him a bit astray, purchasing all kinds of equipment in a kind of "collector" zeal.
Equipment, only marginally useful for this project and IMO marginally useful for any purpose.

It's time to accept the fact that the money we invested is long gone, and there are no realistic avenues leading to production, since that would require significant funds, funds that John does not, and will not have available.

John is not malicious, he did not set out to deceive, he merely handles stress badly and he is not perfect.
Rest assured, this whole thing affects him dearly but he sees no way out.

Our posts crossed. If what you say is true, then @JohnW owes it to us, that he states this as fact for himself and the record.

As a worst outcome for John, I don't see why he cannot give the DevDac design to a Manufacturer in return for their help to complete the programming, chassis design and manufacturing. In return, John gets say 150 units at cost price for the project sponsors. The Manufacturer then has the right to sell to the open market. That would discharge one debt.

The FDAC will probably have to be dropped (sponsors can take a DevDac) and once the DevDac is completed, John can concentrate on the VFETs, which I understand are a relatively easy development for him. Another debt discharged.

John will still have his lab equipment, some of which these projects helped fund and he also has had substantial development funds. Instead of holding on to all the balls, he needs to offload some of these and let others help the project.
 
I'm not an investor, so not really allowed to contribute, but I think the least worst way out of this is for the DAC people to accept their money is long gone and to see if that allows JW to produce the VFET amps which are supposedly simpler, and into which some people have sunk much larger sums.
 
Im not involved, so delete this if inappropriate, but it should be clear to all that if John enters into an agreement with a bigger player in the market, his most significant challenge will be getting that company to honor his outstanding debt to investors from PFM - any sane company will not want to take on that baggage.

I respect John‘s technical skills considerably, and he doesn‘t have a malevolent bone in his body IMO - but thankfully I was too cynical to believe he could pull this off so did not invest all those years ago...preferring to pay more if a product was finally delivered.
 
I would suggest that John concentrates on his design work for the PCB Layout and Chassis . If Jarek is gone and the relationship is beyond repair, we will need to find a suitable programmer to work with John. I would also suggest that a Project Manager oversees both the design and programming work and has overall responsibility for the delivery. This arrangement relies on @JohnW coming to the table and working within such an arrangement. There is a lot of knowledgeable people on these pages and I'm sure some can help and assist with the tasks in hand, but we need cooperation between all the parties.
This is perfectly sensible. Just because it has been refused before doesn't mean it couldn't happen now. The crucial step would be a completed design of course.
 
It is also true, however, that we, the supporters, have at least contributed to the delays through a never-ending wish list and by raising the requirements

to quote someone else "speak for yourself" I have never done any more than select an FDAC product spec from a 3 option menu at the time created by Westlake, I have never actively driven any features, and have contributed already by offering to price up the detox enclosure amongst other things

John then offered a lot of features/additional funding to trusting/naive supporters to "assist development by injecting more funding" a few of us took him at his word, is that our fault as well ?
 
This is perfectly sensible. Just because it has been refused before doesn't mean it couldn't happen now. The crucial step would be a completed design of course.

I have offered in the past and could no doubt help out a lot, however I could not work with John under any circumstances as he has lied and treated all of us with contempt, there needs to be some element of trust in any working relationship for me

let someone else dig him out of this mess who can hopefully reap some financial reward once we have been taken care of.

p.s. everything over the last few pages is just another version of all the crap before it, the time for running around in circles needs to stop, as there is now more than ever the real danger that supporters on both camps will tear themselves apart which is completely unacceptable on top of the current situation
 
I'm not an investor, so not really allowed to contribute, but I think the least worst way out of this is for the DAC people to accept their money is long gone and to see if that allows JW to produce the VFET amps which are supposedly simpler, and into which some people have sunk much larger sums.

No, I am not interested in VFET’s and I do not want to subsidise anyone who has invested in them.
 
No, I am not interested in VFET’s and I do not want to subsidise anyone who has invested in them.

Speaking as one of the VFET members, can I also suggest that the first priority should be to satisfy the majority here, not a relatively small minority (regardless of £ commitment).
 
As a worst outcome for John, I don't see why he cannot give the DevDac design to a Manufacturer in return for their help to complete the programming, chassis design and manufacturing. In return, John gets say 150 units at cost price for the project sponsors. The Manufacturer then has the right to sell to the open market. That would discharge one debt.

I thought he had implied that this is what he hopes will happen now. But they will have to make them at cost for sponsors. No one is going to pay extra up front for final production costs.
 
Speaking as one of the VFET members, can I also suggest that the first priority should be to satisfy the majority here, not a relatively small minority (regardless of £ commitment).

as this seems the only way to progress VFET, I too want devdac completed asap
 
I've known John personally for many years and recently met with him again. We discussed this issue.

John is a genius in his field but business and handling finances are not his strong suit.
The reason why he is such a remarkable audio designer is partly due to his ability to be obsessively focused on it.
Unfortunately, this obsession had lead him a bit astray, purchasing all kinds of equipment in a kind of "collector" zeal.
Equipment, only marginally useful for this project and IMO marginally useful for any purpose.

It's time to accept the fact that the money we invested is long gone, and there are no realistic avenues leading to production, since that would require significant funds, funds that John does not, and will not have available.

John is not malicious, he did not set out to deceive, he merely handles stress badly and he is not perfect.
Rest assured, this whole thing affects him dearly but he sees no way out.

You have chosen this as your first post here and it is pretty damning of the project. You have known him personally for many years so did he know you were going to post this, seems a bit unbelievable?
 


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