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How do the 'non-subjectivists' choose their hi-fi systems?

Not quite simply 'assumed'. An appropriate arrangement seeks to makes them 'common mode' as effectively as possible *and then tests how closely that has been done* that via the stats, test protocol, etc. And lack of common equivalence can then show up by a swapping over of the parts intended as common mode and seeing if this shifts the results, for example. Details will vary depending on what the purpose of the test may be.

Dinnertime!... :)
Yes, one doesn't need to swap and hope.

DOE is a very precise methodology that is the basis of actual experimental science. It is used every day in every experimental lab worldwide.

If one takes the class, that is. I am surprised that so few have. In the States it has been a requirement for many decades. Certainly in proffessional engineering circles (defense and aerospace) I never have to explain what DOE stands for and why/how to use it.

Real expertise in this field is required in order to properly compress the often very large experimental matrix to a more practical size with minimum risk to results quality. However no one would simply throw out confounding effects, or worse, not even understand their importance.
 
Sorry, but I can't see where you're pointing when you're waving your hands so vigorously.
I think lack of any cojant argument from you reveals an astonishing lack of cojant knowledge.

Apparently many people think of themselves as educated in the sciences with very little background in statistics.

The latter is treated as a boring afterthought, that one can surely figure out on the fly, like swapping things around and mixing in some repetitions.
 
Given the obviously lacking response from the luminaries of the objective cohort to the basic statistical errors of the DBT setups, I am beginning to suspect that the whole methodology (or at least its modern incarnation wrt the audiophile world) developed as an attempt to "demonstrate" that "everything sounds the same" and "CD is perfect sound forever."
 
For example, an attempt to demonstrate that speaker cables sound the same that uses a single amplifier and speakers is limited to only that combination. And since a particular amp and speaker used may in fact mask the cable differences (hence the term confounding) and we stupidly made no attempt to quantify this effect, we are required to dismiss any result of this test as statistically insignificant.
The blind test is actually used to demonstrate that the cables sound different. I think you should pause for a minute and try to form a coherent argument. After you get the basics right, you should expect to receive "response from the luminaries of the objective cohort".
 
Still rolling then.

Why don’t the various protagonists state their level of expertise, education, speciality etc so we can see who the snake oil purveyors are?

I am a social studies grad so I have no claim to knowledge but still have a nice sounding system.
 
The blind test is actually used to demonstrate that the cables sound different. I think you should pause for a minute and try to form a coherent argument. After you get the basics right, you should expect to receive "response from the luminaries of the objective cohort".
Oh boy, we can't really avoid going to the basics when conversing with truly educated, can we?

Lets set out to design a correct test protocol for audibility of speaker cables. Since this question is only relevant in the context of a sound reproduction environment we will need various items to test with - in a world of DOE they are called factors. These would be at a minimum amplifiers, speakers, front ends, musical styles, listening rooms, etc. Note the plural - there are many versions of each factor - in a world of DOE they are called levels. When we try to setup an experimental matrix we quickly discover that the number of tests required to answer our question is impractically large. But instead of giving up, we will attempt to limit both the factors and levels to the bare minimum that can still support a reasonable design.

Lets limit the factors to just three - amplifiers, cables and speakers. We will not determine the importance of others, but we will rationally stipulate that since these factors are further removed from the cables, perhaps their effect is less pronounced. Additionally, we will limit the levels to just two, in order to arrive at the minimal number of required tests. In this choice we will attempt to cover the design space of said factors by using the most unlike versions - a solid state and tube amplifiers and conventional box and planar electrostatics - with all requirements for power being satisfied, of course. For cables we will pick very different approaches - maybe a zipcord and a fancy silver job that costs big money. And we will not attempt to quantify cable length effect, which can be important, in order to make the most compact test matrix possible.

Thus we arrive at the most basic, somewhat lame, but at least straight-face defensible protocol - 3factorial design in a 2cubed format. The "workings" are described here:

http://reliawiki.org/index.php/Two_Level_Factorial_Experiments#The_23_Design

This has the beneficial property of orthogonality, requiring only 8 test runs per repetition to study 3 direct and 3 interactive (confounding) effects. This is so basic that anyone who is setting up experiments that attempt to actually mean something has to know. It's definitional.

Next we will need repetitions to gain statistical confidence. Upthread, a number of 10 seems to be in favor.

So in order to determine audibility of speaker cables (with large limitations as described above) we will need 80 independent double blind listening tests, presumably with the same tired group of listeners. This is the minimum protocol that is still defensible.

The good thing about doing it the right way is that you get a lot of information: we can discover, for example, that cable effect is more prevalent with tube amplifiers, or with dynamic speakers (say). And confirming along the way that statics indeed sound different than dynamics and that perhaps that high power tube amplifiers are not drastically different that solid state brethren (maybe).

To those advocating DBTs, is that what you do? Because in order to claim anything of significance, this is the minimum that has to be done.
 
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Oh boy, we can't really avoid going to the basics when conversing with truly educated, can we?

Lets set out to design a correct test protocol for audibility of speaker cables. Since this question is only relevant in the context of a sound reproduction environment we will need various items to test with - in a world of DOE they are called factors. These would be at a minimum amplifiers, speakers, front ends, musical styles, listening rooms, etc. Note the plural - there are many versions of each factor - in a world of DOE they are called levels. When we try to setup an experimental matrix we quickly discover that the number of tests required to answer our question is impractically large. But instead of giving up, we will attempt to limit both the factors and levels to the bare minimum that can still support a reasonable design.

Lets limit the factors to just three - amplifiers, cables and speakers. We will not determine the importance of others, but we will rationally stipulate that since these factors are further removed from the cables, perhaps their effect is less pronounced. Additionally, we will limit the levels to just two, in order to arrive at the minimal number of required tests. In this choice we will attempt to cover the design space of said factors by using the most unlike versions - a solid state and tube amplifiers and conventional box and planar electrostatics - with all requirements for power being satisfied, of course. For cables we will pick very different approaches - maybe a zipcord and a fancy silver job that costs big money. And we will not attempt to quantify cable length effect, which can be important, in order to make the most compact test matrix possible.

Thus we arrive at the most basic, somewhat lame, but at least straight-face defensible protocol - 3factorial design in a 2cubed format. The "workings" are described here:

http://reliawiki.org/index.php/Two_Level_Factorial_Experiments#The_23_Design

This has the beneficial property of orthogonality, requiring only 8 test runs per repetition to study 3 direct and 3 interactive (confounding) effects. This is so basic that anyone who is setting up experiments that attempt to actually mean something has to know this. It's definitional.

Next we will need repetitions to gain statistical confidence. Upthread, a number of 10 seems to be in favor.

So in order to determine audibility of speaker cables (with large limitations as described above) we will need 80 independent double blind listening tests, presumably with the same tired group of listeners. This is the minimum protocol that is still defensible.

To those advocating DBTs, is that what you do? Because in order to claim anything of significance, this is the minimum that has to be done.

Complete. Irrelevant. Nonsense.

None of this is necessary to simply confirm if one cable sounds different to another. What you're trying to show is if a cable can sound different in different systems. If I'm thinking of buying new speaker cables, the only system that I'm interested in is my own.

A DOE isn't needed.
 
Complete. Irrelevant. Nonsense.

None of this is necessary to simply confirm if one cable sounds different to another. What you're trying to show is if a cable can sound different in different systems. If I'm thinking of buying new speaker cables, the only system that I'm interested in is my own.

A DOE isn't needed.
I agree.

This was simply a half-hearted effort to demonstrate the bare minimum of the experimental rigor that would be required for audio objectivists to actually follow long established testing protocols, like we mostly do in defense and aerospace. Which they claim to adhere to, but do not come close. And yet, they ※believe※ in the "results."

Why?
 
Still rolling then.

Why don’t the various protagonists state their level of expertise, education, speciality etc so we can see who the snake oil purveyors are?

I am a social studies grad so I have no claim to knowledge but still have a nice sounding system.
I have stated my credentials previously on another thread, such as they are. My understanding is that people I am arguing with are indeed highly educated, with superb graduate degrees and accomplished and respected academic careers. And they prefer to remain semi-anonymous, which we all should respect.

Given my relatively truncated education and a career in engineering and not science; I am certainly an underdog. My lack of academic cred has been pointed by opposing parties previously - with concomitant disdain that is common to the highly educated.
 
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Dudes,

Audio is supposed to be fun. Put on a record, CD, stream bits or whatever and enjoy the music, whether you're listening blind, slighted or with one eye poked out.

giphy-downsized.gif


Joe
 
Dudes,

Audio is supposed to be fun. Put on a record, CD, stream bits or whatever and enjoy the music, whether you're listening blind, slighted or with one eye poked out.

giphy-downsized.gif


Joe
Despite all the amputations
You can still dance to a rock-n-roll station
....
Her life was saved by rock-n-roll


Lou Reed, rip
 


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