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Wagner for Beginners?

monstrous lie

monstrous lie

Infinitely Baffled
Here's a challenge for the Wagnerians out there ...

Throughout all my adult life my listening habits have been conditioned by three principles, which I took up for the simple reason that they consistently worked for me. They were: i) early and baroque music is wonderful but I struggle with later material; anything after Schubert has not been very rewarding, ii) small forces good, large forces bad, and iii) I don't "get" opera.

As a formula for choosing music to listen to, this has served me well. However, as an appraisal of the world of music, it is pretty Neanderthal - and I have always been aware of that but just chose to overlook it. However, with advancing years, and maybe with greater musical curiosity, I find I now want to start looking behind the curtain that I drew across so tightly in my young years. So I have been playing around promiscuously with all sorts of recordings that would never have previously made the playlist, and the results have been really enjoyable - even when they haven't been completely successful. I feel now, though, that I want to tackle the last taboo - Wagner. You will appreciate from my description above, that Wagner breaks all my rules and violates every principle I hold dear. And yet ... and yet ... I know that his music exerts such a hold over some people that it is almost a cult. There is such a devoted following that I can't avoid the conclusion there must be something of monumental proportions (and, presumably, value) behind it. So I want to take a peek.

But where to start? I have had a delightful recording of the Siegfried Idyll for some years. I enjoy it a lot, but that's not really Wagner, is it? Where would the knowledgeable suggest I start to listen in order to sample the "real thing"? Your suggestions would be very welcome, but please bear in mind that though I am a seasoned listener, I am a complete virgin when it comes to large-scale Germanic opera. The choices should, if possible, be approachable as well as authentically Wagnerian. Enjoyable and not just mystical.

Have at it, chums - but please be gentle with me!
ML
 
Lohengrin and Die Valkirie - perhaps, both are "accessible" compared with some other Wagner opera, have you tried a compilation album, I prefer my Wagner complete but it may be a way of feeling your way in.
 
windhoek said:
Here you go - Orchestral Music from Der Ring des Nibelungen by George Szell-Cleveland Orchestra :)
Click to expand...

I'd agree this is a good choice. Though now (being familiar with the Ring) I find that in this purely orchestral adaptation, the instrumental replacement for the voice doesn't really work for me - for example the "Woodbird" passage in the Forest Murmurs - which makes the music much less satisfying.

So a "Ring Highlights" disc of true excerpts from the Opera would be an alternative choice. There are many to choose from, for example:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00002458I/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
One way you could approach this is to buy all the Wagner you could possibly ever want in one fell swoop and listen to it in miniature chunks. Tony has the 40 CD Great Recordings box for sale here.

https://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/classical-cds.199268/

Warning: I think Tony has it for sale because he, like me, bought it as a Wagner crash course - ploughing in at CD1 with the intention of emerging at CD40 with a decent understanding of his music. We were both defeated, me before reaching double figures. It was rather like the plucky lieutenant from Forbidden Planet trying to absorb the knowledge of the Krell too quickly. Handle with care and you may survive.
 
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. They're much appreciated.
I want the full fat experience - though only a small dose of it - so that rules out arrangements which substitute orchestral passages for vocal ones. Also, I have enough of the purist in me to want a single work rather than collected excerpts. All of which makes Lohengrin an attractive choice. The recommendation here, plus info I have gleaned from reading around a bit, suggests it is a little (relatively speaking) jewel. Let's see how we get on - I might not get to the end of CD1 before I am gagging for some Monteverdi!
ML
 
monstrous lie said:
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions. They're much appreciated.
I want the full fat experience - though only a small dose of it - so that rules out arrangements which substitute orchestral passages for vocal ones. Also, I have enough of the purist in me to want a single work rather than collected excerpts. All of which makes Lohengrin an attractive choice. The recommendation here, plus info I have gleaned from reading around a bit, suggests it is a little (relatively speaking) jewel. Let's see how we get on - I might not get to the end of CD1 before I am gagging for some Monteverdi!
ML
Click to expand...

Honestly - I think you are giving yourself a tough option by going for just one whole Opera. So if you don't get on with Lohengrin, please don't give up on Wagner entirely! I don't know Lohengrin well, but it is very different in character from the Ring cycle.
 
Let’s not forget Rossini’s quote...”Wagner has lovely moments but awful quarters of an hour”:)
 
In many ways these very long operas are best experienced live, and with subtitles/surtitles (otherwise you will not have the foggiest what is going on for much of the time). A DVD is a good alternative, e.g.:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000QFBW6K/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

But if you are new a particular Wagner opera, then only listening to the CDs, especially without a libretto, is a very tough ask I think!

For the record, I'd also say IMHO that Rossini is a pygmy compared to Wagner!
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
gustavm said:
Honestly - I think you are giving yourself a tough option by going for just one whole Opera. So if you don't get on with Lohengrin, please don't give up on Wagner entirely! I don't know Lohengrin well, but it is very different in character from the Ring cycle.
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Agreed. Lohengrin is not representative of Wagner's legacy, if he had stopped there he would be just another semi-forgotten Grand Opera composer from mid 19th C. alongside Meyerbeer, Halevy and the young Verdi.

His best music came later - starting with The Valkyrie, and then Gotterdammerung and Parsifal as the subsequent peaks - with Tristan and Isolde in the middle of that as the absolute summit of his range.
 
Marchbanks said:
Warning: I think Tony has it for sale because he, like me, bought it as a Wagner crash course - ploughing in at CD1 with the intention of emerging at CD40 with a decent understanding of his music. We were both defeated, me before reaching double figures. It was rather like the plucky lieutenant from Forbidden Planet trying to absorb the knowledge of the Krell too quickly. Handle with care and you may survive.
Click to expand...

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that Solti’s Decca Ring Cycle is the only Wagner I’ll personally ever need or want to dip into now and again! To caveat that I’m more a baroque, chamber and 20th century classical listener, I’m just not really drawn to large opera works and Wagner wrote little else. I’d have loved to see what he could do with a string quartet as that is more where I live musically. The box I have advertised is reputedly excellent, I just know I’ll never play it as I always have so many things more to my taste/perspective waiting in the in-tray.
 
monstrous lie said:
Here's a challenge for the Wagnerians out there ...

Throughout all my adult life my listening habits have been conditioned by three principles, which I took up for the simple reason that they consistently worked for me. They were: i) early and baroque music is wonderful but I struggle with later material; anything after Schubert has not been very rewarding, ii) small forces good, large forces bad, and iii) I don't "get" opera.

As a formula for choosing music to listen to, this has served me well. However, as an appraisal of the world of music, it is pretty Neanderthal - and I have always been aware of that but just chose to overlook it. However, with advancing years, and maybe with greater musical curiosity, I find I now want to start looking behind the curtain that I drew across so tightly in my young years. So I have been playing around promiscuously with all sorts of recordings that would never have previously made the playlist, and the results have been really enjoyable - even when they haven't been completely successful. I feel now, though, that I want to tackle the last taboo - Wagner. You will appreciate from my description above, that Wagner breaks all my rules and violates every principle I hold dear. And yet ... and yet ... I know that his music exerts such a hold over some people that it is almost a cult. There is such a devoted following that I can't avoid the conclusion there must be something of monumental proportions (and, presumably, value) behind it. So I want to take a peek.

But where to start? I have had a delightful recording of the Siegfried Idyll for some years. I enjoy it a lot, but that's not really Wagner, is it? Where would the knowledgeable suggest I start to listen in order to sample the "real thing"? Your suggestions would be very welcome, but please bear in mind that though I am a seasoned listener, I am a complete virgin when it comes to large-scale Germanic opera. The choices should, if possible, be approachable as well as authentically Wagnerian. Enjoyable and not just mystical.

Have at it, chums - but please be gentle with me!
ML
Click to expand...

Here's my Wagner life story in order, what worked for me may work for you. I should say that I was ready to follow the libretto while listening. This is an important knack, if you don't have it, then my method won't work. I also like epic marathon tasks, and I like theatre.

1. Tristan (Karajan) That's what turned me on to Wagner.
2. The Ring (Solti) -- I listened to the whole thing over a week or so, following the text, and repeating bits that caught my imagination. I still think that the last couple of hours or so of Gotterdammerung, from Hagen's watch to Siegfried's Funeral March, is the greatest dramatic music ever written.
3. The Bruno Walter Lotte Lehmann Lauritz Melchior Act 1 Walkure. I got to know it so well I could sing along. I used to play it while preparing dinner.
4. Parsifal (Karajan)

I was going to operas a lot in London and Paris and Edinburgh/Avignon Festivals at the time, including Wagner. Later on I started to explore DVDs a little, but with the libretto I was fine with a sound recording. I've seen the Dutchman and Lohengrin and Tanhauser, but never listened to them at home and in truth they left me neither hot nor cold.

I used two books, Kobbe's Opera Guide and Finding and Ending by Philip Kitcher and Richard Schacht.

It obviously goes without saying that although these operas are long, they are all apart from Rheingold, broken up into acts, and there's no need to listen to all three acts in one evening! I don't like Rheingold at all!

Walkure is the most accessible in my experience, of the late great operas.
 
mandryka said:
Walkure is the most accessible in my experience, of the late great operas.
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I agree with that, my first experience of Wagner was the ride of the Valkyries from the 1951 Karajan Bayreuth recording when I was about eleven - took another thirty five years to get properly into the rest of Wagner though....
 
mandryka said:
I don't like Rheingold at all!

Walkure is the most accessible in my experience, of the late great operas.
Click to expand...

I definitely agree Walkure is the most accessible - the first act contains some of the most lyrical music of the Ring Cycle, and the last section of the last act (from "Leb wohl") the most powerful.

But Rheingold contains some wonderful music too - notably:

The Rhinemaiden scene (especially "Lugt Schwestern")
The Descent into Nibelung
The Entry of the Gods into Valhalla
 
In the past I was daunted by Wagner's operas. I have played the usual preludes in amateur orchestras but nothing more. One day I played a recording of Die Walkure and I was blown away from the opening bars. It's quite breathless. And the Act 3 is really something special. I hope it works for you.
 
Oh, and Parsifal can be quite beautiful. I caught a bit of India Jones and the something-or-other on TV and they've obviously plagiarised the Parsifal music (badly).
 
monstrous lie said:
But where to start?
Have at it, chums - but please be gentle with me!
ML
Click to expand...

Just throw yourself in. It won't hurt and might even be inspiring. :)

I've seen the Ring Cycle operas twice at The Royal Albert Hall. I own a Sir Georg Solti Der Ring des Nibelungen CD Box Set. I've also got the original 22 Decca LPs and a libretto in a wooden box, decorated in gold and green. I don't play it that often, but am amazed when I do.

I'd like to see The Ring at the Bayreuth Festival in the theatre designed and built for its first performance by Wagner in 1876. Supply and demand mean it's difficult to get tickets, I think. One person I know booked a decade in advance.

Jack
 
gustavm said:
In many ways these very long operas are best experienced live, and with subtitles/surtitles (otherwise you will not have the foggiest what is going on for much of the time). A DVD is a good alternative, e.g.:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000QFBW6K/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

But if you are new a particular Wagner opera, then only listening to the CDs, especially without a libretto, is a very tough ask I think!

For the record, I'd also say IMHO that Rossini is a pygmy compared to Wagner!
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with pygmies. Lovely people with a fine vocal style (one that I find superior to yodelling).
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
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