Labour to abolish independent schools?

[Tony L]

So the question still remains; do we want a more iniquitous system, in which case let’s be clear and not try to hide from it and make it explicit? Or do we want an inclusive system and face the expense and the difficulties of making it happen?

I don’t think anyone would object to that in the slightest, the only real debate is the methodology of achieving it. Labour (or at least a hard-line faction within) seem to want achive equality by banning the choices open to the more wealthy (i.e. class warriorism/levelling down). I’d far prefer to render private schools obsolete anachronisms by significantly raising the standards and safety of state schools. Really no need for authoritarianism here, just some serious investment in quality and addressing the social issues that make many state schools such unattractive propositions to many parents.

 

[ks.234]

I don’t think anyone would object to that in the slightest, the only real debate is the methodology of achieving it. Labour (or at least a hard-line faction within) seem to want achive equality by banning the choices open to the more wealthy (i.e. class warriorism/levelling down). I’d far prefer to render private schools obsolete anachronisms by significantly raising the standards and safety of state schools. Really no need for authoritarianism here, just some serious investment in quality and addressing the social issues that make many state schools such unattractive propositions to many parents.

Yes, I’d agree with that, though removing charitable status and what Angela Rayner has called ‘tax loopholes’ for fee paying schools is something that obviously needs looking at

 

[eternumviti]

I don’t think anyone would object to that in the slightest, the only real debate is the methodology of achieving it. Labour (or at least a hard-line faction within) seem to want achive equality by banning the choices open to the more wealthy (i.e. class warriorism/levelling down). I’d far prefer to render private schools obsolete anachronisms by significantly raising the standards and safety of state schools. Really no need for authoritarianism here, just some serious investment in quality and addressing the social issues that make many state schools such unattractive propositions to many parents.

The point that I made earlier regarding the school that my two attended is that state schools have already shown that they are capable of meeting or exceeding the standards of private schools. The task is to spread those standards to all state schools.

 

[ks.234]

The point that I made earlier regarding the school that my two attended is that state schools have already shown that they are capable of meeting or exceeding the standards of private schools. The task is to spread those standards to all state schools.

Except that many excellent schools are excellent because the kids are excellent and come from excellent backgrounds and ensure/perpetuate that excellence by off rolling the undesirable kids to somewhere else. These schools are not necessarily a model for success across the board and in deprived areas with deprived kids

 

[Tony L]

Yes, I’d agree with that, though removing charitable status and what Angela Rayner has called ‘tax loopholes for fee paying schools is something that obviously needs looking at

Agreed. There needs to be an exceptional case made for charitable status, e.g. a very significant percentage of special needs kids etc. Anything other than that and it is just a business IMHO.

 

[ks.234]

Agreed. There needs to be an exceptional case made for charitable status, e.g. a very significant percentage of special needs kids etc. Anything other than that and it is just a business IMHO.

Yes, agreed.

 

[Ponty]

We are left with a lot of uneducated children who drop out early with no obvious path forwards.

Hardly surprising when my sister (who was a teacher before having kids) tells me of state schools teaching pupils what benefits they are ‘entitled to’ when they leave school. Funnily enough, that’s what many of them do, whilst knocking out kids they can’t afford to raise and expecting the rest of us to pay for (rough part of Cornwall). No doubt this is the same all across the country. And so the cycle continues.

 

[Guest432]

Hardly surprising when my sister (who was a teacher before having kids) tells me of state schools teaching pupils what benefits they are ‘entitled to’ when they leave school. Funnily enough, that’s what many of them do, whilst knocking out kids they can’t afford to raise and expecting the rest of us to pay for (rough part of Cornwall). No doubt this is the same all across the country. And so the cycle continues.

Utter bollocks.

 

[Guest432]

Yes, I’d agree with that, though removing charitable status and what Angela Rayner has called ‘tax loopholes for fee paying schools is something that obviously needs looking at

But that isn't Labours proposal, they want to scrap the tax loophole and redistribute their money and property to the state, effectively nationalising private schools.

There are around 2,500 private schools in the UK and if we guess at 20x teachers per school that gives us 50,000 teachers, assuming the average private school salary is £40,000 the state bill just for teachers would be an additional £2 billion per year not to mention the pension overhead.

From a limited amount of googling it seems that private teachers salaries are not much more than state but this is still a phenomenal overhead that needs to be transferred from private to state.

 

[Ponty]

Utter bollocks.

You’ve taught and spent time in these areas then. One of the most deprived in Europe.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Yes, I’d agree with that, though removing charitable status and what Angela Rayner has called ‘tax loopholes’ for fee paying schools is something that obviously needs looking at

Perhaps they could remove the tax loopholes but also hypothecate the tax collected, to use for bursaries for deserving kids who could otherwise not afford the education on offer. That’d be a start to a levelling-up process, which could then focus on reducing need and demand for such education by improving the state offer.

 

[Ponty]

Perhaps they could remove the tax loopholes but also hypothecate the tax collected, to use for bursaries for deserving kids who could otherwise not afford the education on offer. That’d be a start to a levelling-up process, which could then focus on reducing need and demand for such education by improving the state offer.

They already do that in essence. For example, legacies are left free of IHT which are then used to fund bursaries for kids who would otherwise have no chance of attending the school.

 

[SteveG]

The point that I made earlier regarding the school that my two attended is that state schools have already shown that they are capable of meeting or exceeding the standards of private schools. The task is to spread those standards to all state schools.

Here in Edinburgh there are some very good state schools (including the one that we're in the catchment area for) however while they get very good results they're still significantly behind the level of results that the independent schools get. The difference between the independents and some of the more challenged state schools in Edinburgh is of course vast.

My wife and daughter are both qualified teachers with experience of both the state and private sectors so it has been an ongoing discussion point in our house for quite some time.

 

[ks.234]

But that isn't Labours proposal, they want to scrap the tax loophole and redistribute their money and property to the state, effectively nationalising private schools.

There are around 2,500 private schools in the UK and if we guess at 20x teachers per school that gives us 50,000 teachers, assuming the average private school salary is £40,000 the state bill just for teachers would be an additional £2 billion per year not to mention the pension overhead.

From a limited amount of googling it seems that private teachers salaries are not much more than state but this is still a phenomenal overhead that needs to be transferred from private to state.

I had moved away from labour’s conference motion in order to attempt an answer to your question on a more personal basis. As I have said, Labour’s motion is not one I support, partly for the reasons you state, but anyway, the conference motion will likely get kicked into the long grass well before it gets anywhere near the manifesto.

 

[ks.234]

Perhaps they could remove the tax loopholes but also hypothecate the tax collected, to use for bursaries for deserving kids who could otherwise not afford the education on offer. That’d be a start to a levelling-up process, which could then focus on reducing need and demand for such education by improving the state offer.

There’s an assumption in there that the education in a fee paying school is in and of itself better, rather than being down to small class sizes and supportive parents. I know from my experience as a caseworker for one of the teachers unions that fee paying schools have their fair share of underperforming teachers

 

[Guest432]

You’ve taught and spent time in these areas then. One of the most deprived in Europe.

Your post is dripping with right wing cliches. I don't need teaching experience to recognise that.

 

[Joe]

But that isn't Labours proposal, they want to scrap the tax loophole and redistribute their money and property to the state, effectively nationalising private schools.

There are around 2,500 private schools in the UK and if we guess at 20x teachers per school that gives us 50,000 teachers, assuming the average private school salary is £40,000 the state bill just for teachers would be an additional £2 billion per year not to mention the pension overhead.

From a limited amount of googling it seems that private teachers salaries are not much more than state but this is still a phenomenal overhead that needs to be transferred from private to state.

Headline figures

These figures cover ISC schools only. Total for all independent schools is higher and is detailed in the full report.

ISC schools' contribution to UK GDP.......£9.5 billion

Jobs supported by ISC schools in UK.......227,200

Every 2.1 pupils at an ISC school support one person in employment.

Tax revenues generated by ISC schools.... £3.6 billion

For every £1 contributed a further 98p is generated in the rest of the economy.

Taxpayer saving from 500,000 ISC pupils not being in state education........... £3 billion

Value of charitable status tax relief............£150 million..... 5% of the taxpayer saving.

https://www.isc.co.uk/media/3783/isc-key-figures-2016-17.pdf

 

[Guest432]

I had moved away from labour’s conference motion in order to attempt an answer to your question on a more personal basis. As I have said, Labour’s motion is not one I support, partly for the reasons you state, but anyway, the conference motion will likely get kicked into the long grass well before it gets anywhere near the manifesto.

My mistake, I thought you supported it..

That aside a forum full of farts saying how we will fix the world is worth nothing. Labour have proposed something that is worthy of a naive socialist student union.

They should understand that proposing fanciful and pie in the sky objectives (even if they are later kicked into the long grass) looks stupid, naive and damages their reputation.

 

[Ponty]

Your post is dripping with right wing cliches. I don't need teaching experience to recognise that.

Well, what I’ve said is true. In those areas, there are kids who, despite living 3 miles from some of the most stunning coastline in the country, have never seen the sea until a school trip takes them there. That’s got nothing to do with governments or politics of any description, just exceptionally poor parenting.

 

[Guest432]

Well, what I’ve said is true. In those areas, there are kids who, despite living 3 miles from some of the most stunning coastline in the country, have never seen the sea until a school trip takes them there. That’s got nothing to do with governments or politics of any description, just exceptionally poor parenting.

Make your mind up, one minute it's the schools teaching kids how to claim benefits and pop out sprogs and now it's the parents fault.

Hows about a trifecta and blaming those bloody immigrants stealing our public service resources as well?