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Streaming transports SQ differences?

Del monaco said:
Ah a streamer. Must be good given the pedigree. I get lots of free and cheap things. You’ve just got to be creative. I also have a free Micromega CD player and Rega Ela Mk. 1 speakers in the garage. They’re usually from folks who just seem to change stuff a lot. Cash converters had a Rotel 965 BX for £36 the other day. It’s where you’re prepared to look. I’m not cash rich and avoid paying on credit so I aim for the best I can get for the money I have and hint strongly for gifts. It may be harder for me to pay for Roon next year but I’d be happy to drop back into the LMS domain with its IPlayer and Streaming potential still intact. Roon runs on my free Mac but will run on my free Mini Mac once it’s up and running. I’m hankering after a Nuc but I’ll have to plan a strategy to get one of those.
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As a streamer/DAC its brilliant, but I wanted a Roon Endpoint, and currently CA arent making their systems Roon Ready sadly otherwise I would have kept it forever!

I'm not cash rich either, I don't really have any family so gifts are out! I've sold a lot of pocessions and saved hard to get the bits I have, I just found, with all the tinkering I was doing with low end gear, it just never got to my audio Nirvana and I was spending more time, effort and agro chasing a cheap build dream. I also have a big thing about design and the way something looks, so this ends up being an equally contributing factor to me. It can be the best amp in the world, but if it looks like something out of a 1970's tank, I won't have it!

Del monaco said:
He’s a good informed guy. I’ve bought from him in the past.I also think he’s given a hard time. At least he is consistent in his views.
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He is anything but consistent, thats half the problem. One day all DACS sound the same, the next, the ones he sells sound different. He shares these inconsistencies over multiple forums. I also don't like his shady business ethics, but each to their own, if he works for you, great stuff.
 
I have never stated all DACs sound the same, some designs NOS, R2R and anything with a valve in it are in my opinion broken, these designs may sound different and you may even enjoy them.
But properly designed ( cast your eye over Amir’s measurements) oversampling designs are going to sound pretty much identical, differing if at all only by the choice of reconstruction filter.
To the OP you can purchase an expensive streamer but it won’t make the difference to the sound quality, IMO far better to spend money where it will bring a real improvement to SQ.
Keith
 
Thanks.
Perhaps I didn't explain my circumstances earlier or perhaps it got lost in the thread.

Its a bit boring but please have a read.

I already have a Simaudio 380d streaming dac. I recently acquired a Trinnov ST 2 HiFi for room correction. The 380d has a digital monitor loop for incorporation of RC devices and thats what I was using so

380d digital out into Trinnov, digital out of Trinnov back into 380d for D to A. My CDT also plugs into the 380d.

However I suspect the monitor loop on the Moon isn't that well implemented. The CDT sounds better if plugged straight into the Trinnov and then allow it to do D to A.

So bottom line is I no longer want to use the dac in the 380d /use its monitor loop. I can plug my cdt and a streamer straight into the Trinnov.

The 380d has the older MiND 1 which is ok but not great as an app. It is also non dsd (not sure if I even need this) and non Roon. I gather MiND2 is much better.

So hence my idea to trade the 380d for a new streamer with all the bells and whistles.

However, the 380d can be upgraded to MiND2 with Roon (but not dsd) for circa £800.

Initial enquiries suggest my 380d might only be worth circa £1k for trade in. So if I were to buy a £2k streamer I'd have £1k to pay. The alternative is that I upgrade the 380d for £800 and use its digital output and not its dac.

I would need to test its digital output to make sure its ok. I will have a dac which I don't need right now but who knows what the future may bring. It also has a multitude of inputs inc usb etc.

So either way I'm looking at £800 to £1k.

Now that I've written it all out perhaps the obvious answer is to upgrade the 380d and bypass its dac....once I've convinced myself that its digital output is well implemented.

Thanks for reading all that!
 
I just used to use a laptop with my Trinnov, now I just use a small dedicated NUC INtel computer dedicated to running ROON, under the skin every ‘streamer’ is just a stripped down computer.
Keith
 
FWIW I've recently changed from laptop/foobar/wasapi to a Bluesound Vault 2.
I can't honestly say that I hear any improvement in sound quality but to have the ability to rip my CD collection and store in the same place as the rest of my collection is great.
The Bluos controller is a pleasure to use and I'm finding that I'm listening to and rediscovering music that I haven't played for years.:)
I was initially troubled by the fact that it stays on 24/7 but with the ability to turn off the display that was soon forgotten and of course it means that music is instantly available without the faff of booting up etc.
One slight regret is not having the ability to stream music to a smartphone/tablet as the Bluesound dosen't support upnp and for that reason I'm tempted to also try a Innuos Zen Mini and sell on the one which ticks least boxes.
 
Purité Audio said:
I have never stated all DACs sound the same, some designs NOS, R2R and anything with a valve in it are in my opinion broken, these designs may sound different and you may even enjoy them.
But properly designed ( cast your eye over Amir’s measurements) oversampling designs are going to sound pretty much identical, differing if at all only by the choice of reconstruction filter.
To the OP you can purchase an expensive streamer but it won’t make the difference to the sound quality, IMO far better to spend money where it will bring a real improvement to SQ.
Keith
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I will start screen grabbing all your inconsistencies from now one, better make sure you repeat yourself accurately. If you ask eBay to use their automated response systems software, you'll be able to just press two keys and itll generate your usual reply, without any effort!

I have no interest in measurements as you cant measure everything you can hear. Thats why the greats, (not an internet forum boffin who have zero production components), like Ken Ishiwata listen to model their sound, not rely solely on measurements.

Oversampling Dacs dont sound the same as much as you believe they do. But we get your view point, why not just set a signature in your profile then you wont have to repeat it...or would that give you WAY to much time on your hands? Could be dangerous!

Streamers do make a difference to sound quality, unless you are deaf, but it is far more minimally than other component changes. However, as you can't even hear a difference in speaker cable, I appreciate you do have hearing issues and definitely could not detect the subtle differences in transports. So its not entirely your own fault for this, just nature, so with that I can forgive your shortcomings.
 
@indus - so as not to derail your thread, if you wouldn't mind expanding on the Trinnov as a 2 channel system sometime in a new thread I'd be really interested to read your thoughts, I've never heard a Trinnov, not easy to get to a demo for me

Briefly I went from full Naim 500 to Lyngdorf 2170+2400 to 3400+QUAD Powers into ML ESL11a - so RC and Paradigm PBK in action.

Gus
 
The Chronicals said:
As a streamer/DAC its brilliant, but I wanted a Roon Endpoint, and currently CA arent making their systems Roon Ready sadly otherwise I would have kept it forever!

I'm not cash rich either, I don't really have any family so gifts are out! I've sold a lot of pocessions and saved hard to get the bits I have, I just found, with all the tinkering I was doing with low end gear, it just never got to my audio Nirvana and I was spending more time, effort and agro chasing a cheap build dream. I also have a big thing about design and the way something looks, so this ends up being an equally contributing factor to me. It can be the best amp in the world, but if it looks like something out of a 1970's tank, I won't have it!



He is anything but consistent, thats half the problem. One day all DACS sound the same, the next, the ones he sells sound different. He shares these inconsistencies over multiple forums. I also don't like his shady business ethics, but each to their own, if he works for you, great stuff.
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Design is lovely. I have a nice vintage Yammy tuner and I love its look. But for me it’s about my connection to the music and if I can get that with the funds I have then that’s great.I believe I’ve accomplished this through some shrewd buying and some learning. People who visit often comment on how good the sound is and that makes me proud of what I’ve put together.
 
Del monaco said:
Design is lovely. I have a nice vintage Yammy tuner and I love its look. But for me it’s about my connection to the music and if I can get that with the funds I have then that’s great.I believe I’ve accomplished this through some shrewd buying and some learning. People who visit often comment on how good the sound is and that makes me proud of what I’ve put together.
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THat is completely all that matters as ive said before! Its all in the eye of the beholder. Ive seen some living rooms/listening rooms on hifi forums that would make me want to bleach myself if i visited, but some i have been completely in awe of and could only wish for(and they havent always been the most expensive or most modern).

As long as your happy, tis all good.
 
The Chronicals said:
I will start screen grabbing all your inconsistencies from now one, better make sure you repeat yourself accurately. If you ask eBay to use their automated response systems software, you'll be able to just press two keys and itll generate your usual reply, without any effort!

I have no interest in measurements as you cant measure everything you can hear. Thats why the greats, (not an internet forum boffin who have zero production components), like Ken Ishiwata listen to model their sound, not rely solely on measurements.

Oversampling Dacs dont sound the same as much as you believe they do. But we get your view point, why not just set a signature in your profile then you wont have to repeat it...or would that give you WAY to much time on your hands? Could be dangerous!

Streamers do make a difference to sound quality, unless you are deaf, but it is far more minimally than other component changes. However, as you can't even hear a difference in speaker cable, I appreciate you do have hearing issues and definitely could not detect the subtle differences in transports. So its not entirely your own fault for this, just nature, so with that I can forgive your shortcomings.
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I was exactly like you, I believed everything the magazines/manufacturers and dealers said, It just hadn’t occurred to me that they would lie.
If you were to take the time to compare two streamers unsighted through the same dac you would understand.
Spend the time and effort on the components of sound reproduction that will actually improve the sound quality in your room.
Keith
 
Purité Audio said:
I was exactly like you, I believed everything the magazines/manufacturers and dealers said, It just hadn’t occurred to me that they would lie.
If you were to take the time to compare two streamers unsighted through the same dac you would understand.
Spend the time and effort on the components of sound reproduction that will actually improve the sound quality in your room.
Keith
Click to expand...

I do understand, I've done just that, and there was noticeable but minimal differences as explained previously. Same with cables. But with age we do become a lot more complacent, I've noticed that myself with cars, I no longer search for every possible horse power, and want to spend elsewhere as different priorities.

I don't listen to magazines nor manufacturers, hence why dealers mostly hate me as I always have to have a home trial of everything I purchase first.

So you're wrong, again. Twice. Three times and it'll be a pattern.

I definitely don't listen to salespeople who sell 8k Dacs though.
 
It seems the "source first" philosophy doesn't apply that much to streamers. One of the best ways to improve the sound is to correct the listening room, but can be more expensive than to buy new speakers.
I am convinced that buying a new barebone streamer for £500 won't improve as much as treating the listening room for the same amount.
 
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