How Long Before A Vote Of No Confidence In Johnson Government? II

[Tony L]

We've been here before, he's the leader of the largest(by a huge margin) opposition party. Typical Lib enabling tactic is to suggest an alternative no one would entertain.

The only proposed situation was a VoNC with Corbyn as interim leader. This means no Tory who plans to stand at the next election would ever vote for it as it basically spells the end of their careers. So, we need to look at Tories who are seriously anti-Brexit *and* are either stepping down or being deselected. To my knowledge that is Ken Clarke and Dominic Grieve. The Tory/DUP majority is one, so with these we are at minus one. Against that figure you have people on the Labour/non-Tory side who have said they either won’t vote for Corbyn or won’t vote to stop Brexit, so counter with say Soubry, Leslie, Hoey, Mann etc etc. The numbers were never there.

If however the same thing could be achieved without the ‘treachery’ and absolute career destruction of voting for a “far left” Labour government and framed more as a simple policy scenario, which is all the LDs have really been arguing for, then there might be 30 Tories in play.

Turn the tables; exact same scenario rotated 180 degrees... how many Labour MPs would vote against their own party for a Tory government led by say Johnson or IDS? My money is on close to zero. Main party politics is remarkably tribal and career oriented. It is insane/delusional not to factor this in, and Labour didn’t.

The LDs were exactly right to call bullshit and try to persuade people that a more viable and potentially winnable solution be tabled.

 

[glancaster]

For Boris to be defeated, there needs to be a truce across all current and potential opposition. And not just between Lib-Dems and Labour. It's essential that rebel Tories be welcomed into the fold. (And SNP, Plaid, Greens, Change UK, various independents and so on.)

The more people involved in an anti-Boris coalition, the more likely it is to be successful, and the more likely there are to be people you dislike included. So really, the more you hate it, the better it is

 

[ks.234]

What, you mean the way labour have consistently voted PRO BREXIT and the Liberal Democrats have consistently voted ANTI BREXIT?

That difference?

Not true.As has been pointed out before the LDs and VC in particularly we’re not anti Brexit in the aftermath and confusion of the Referendum. Also, Swinson’s voting record on Europe is far from consistent

 

[Swamp Thing]

Not true.As has been pointed out before the LDs and VC in particularly we’re not anti Brexit in the aftermath and confusion of the Referendum

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said: "I am asking all our MPs not to block Article 50 and make sure it goes through next week".[8] However, several Labour MPs were intending to rebel against the whip, including several of Corbyn's fellow opposition frontbenchers.[9][10]

47 of 229 Labour MPs voted against the bill (in defiance of the party's three-line whip), including 10 junior shadow ministers and 3 whips from the party. One Conservative (Kenneth Clarke) voted against the bill, and 2 of the 9 Liberal Democrat MPs abstained.[13] Diane Abbott, the shadow home secretary whose constituency voted to remain in the EU, was accused of having "Brexit flu" as she did not attend the vote on Article 50 due to illness, despite attending a debate in Westminster Hall three hours before the vote.[14][15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_(Notification_of_Withdrawal)_Act_2017

 

[zarniwoop]

Anyway, here's something to cheer us all up (or maybe not):

https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1166797184307802113

https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1166676234211905536

If only these people had a sense of shame, decency or honour.

C4 News earlier ran a lengthy sequence of lying Tory shits claiming they wouldn’t do exactly what they have now just done. Johnson, Gove, Javid, Hancock, Rudd etc etc.

That’s got to be fodder for Led by Donkeys.... light up the walls of the Palace of Westminster

 

[Tony L]

Not true.As has been pointed out before the LDs and VC in particularly we’re not anti Brexit in the aftermath and confusion of the Referendum.

No Lib Dem voted for Article 50, but don’t let facts get in the way of your tacky propaganda smears.

MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

They backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.

But the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats opposed the bill, while 47 Labour MPs and Tory ex-chancellor Ken Clarke rebelled.

BBC.

 

[ks.234]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_(Notification_of_Withdrawal)_Act_2017

I was talking about your statement about LDs

 

[ks.234]

No Lib Dem voted for Article 50, but don’t let facts get in the way of your tacky propaganda smears.



BBC.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...e/news/79094/vince-cable-hits-out-tim-farrons
I was talking about Vince Cable as you know well, but never mind, you keep on with the cheap insults.

• On EU integration, 55 votes for, 12 votes against, 48 absences, between 2006–2019
• Generally voted against a referendum on the UK's membership of the EUShow votes1 vote for, 2 votes against, 6 absences, between 2008–2014

 

[Seanm]

What, you mean the way labour have consistently voted PRO BREXIT and the Liberal Democrats have consistently voted ANTI BREXIT?

That difference?

Yeah, remember when Labour VOTED FOR MAY'S DEAL. Enabling BASTARDS.

 

[Swamp Thing]

you keep on with the cheap insults

Ha! Cheap insults! From one of the apparatchiks who insist that if you are not pro-Corbyn Labour you are obviously Tory!

Cheap Insults indeed!

 

[ks.234]

Ha! Cheap insults! From one of the apparatchiks who insist that if you are not pro-Corbyn Labour you are obviously Tory!

Cheap Insults indeed!

When did I sat that?

 

[cooky1257]

It's widely accepted that Swinson's initial objection to a Corbyn led temp gov was ideological(he's danger to the country!) rather than mathematical(that came later) and yet most of the other opposition parties still felt it worth holding their noses/getting on board/not prepared to dismiss it out of hand as unworkable..a few even tried to get her to change her mind, who knows how many more disaffected Tories could have been persuaded over the next few weeks. We'll never know now but it will be interesting to see how many Tories resign following todays developments..

 

[Seanm]

Turn the tables; exact same scenario rotated 180 degrees... how many Labour MPs would vote against their own party for a Tory government led by say Johnson or IDS? My money is on close to zero. Main party politics is remarkably tribal and career oriented. It is insane/delusional not to factor this in, and Labour didn’t.

The LDs were exactly right to call bullshit and try to persuade people that a more viable and potentially winnable solution be tabled.

I thought you'd been saying you expect a good number of them to do exactly this?

As for the LD's more winnable solution, remember that it was a total fantasy. They just pulled it out of their collective Harris. All the other opposition leaders and a good few of Swinson's own MPs dismissed it out of hand. It was a joke.

It's not meaningful to say "the numbers were never there" when those numbers were always going to depend on the pressure brought to bear on the likes of Soubry and her old colleagues. Swinson was well placed to contribute to that process but decided she'd rather go for another half-dozen MPs instead.

Anyway, the LDs have had their moment. Let's see what happens now.

 

[Cav]

Before the Fixed-terms Parliaments Act it was a moot point as the PM could call a general election whenever they wanted.

Since then, the question has not come up. So, it’s interesting. But we definitely have that 14 day delay before the election becomes unstoppable. If, during that period, it becomes clear that Boris no longer commands the support of majority of the Commons but Corbyn (or whoever) does, what makes most sense?

Kind regards

- Garry

A vote of no confidence removes Boris from all equations. If the Commons supported a labour led alternative then Corbyn would go to the Queen for her assent to form the next Government. No General Election required.

 

[ff1d1l]

That would have been suicide. Politics isn't about the right vs a centrist consensus as many here mistakenly believe. Attacking people who voted for Brexit, dismissing then a racists, or heaven forbid - gammons, only abandons them to the right.

The right is fvcking welcome to them.

 

[htm_1968]

Time for the Shinners to finally turn up (even if only for one day) and really upset things .

 

[cooky1257]

Time for the Shinners to finally turn up (even if only for one day) and really upset things .

I wouldn't hold my breath..https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...poll-ireland-unity-must-follow-no-deal-brexit

 

[MikeMA]

Time for the Shinners to finally turn up (even if only for one day) and really upset things .

This crossed my mind again today. Sinn Fein coming to the rescue, and protecting the interests of Ireland. If ever there was a time, it is now! Tiochfaidh ar la!

 

[Swamp Thing]

When did I sat that?

I don't believe you did.

I was conflating your morals with the pack of dogs you run with.

My apologies.

 

[maxflinn]

I’m just a little sick of folk who very knowingly attempt to smear the Lib Dems as “Tories” etc with remarkably cynical AAV, Momentum or whatever propaganda memes, tropes etc. It just becomes wearing, especially given my utter disappointment with Corbyn’s Labour over the past few years. I realise I may counter with attacks that may be similarly extreme, though as someone who has spent a life utterly repulsed by nationalism and racism I find his acceptance of the Brexit project incomprehensible and a disgrace to what I personally (possibly incorrectly) always thought the Labour party stood for.

I grew up through the Rock Against Racism, Red Wedge, anti-apartheid thing of the ‘70s and ‘80s and there is no way we tolerated shit like the NF, Nazi skins etc. For me that is what Brexit is. Farage etc is just another NF arsehole. Same shit, different suit, and even more traction amongst the thickest in society. That 1970s and 80s football thug mentality alive and well on our streets. As such I want nothing to do with any party that is prepared to accept or tolerate that mindset. I feel as let down by Labour over this issue as I did over Iraq, probably more so as Brexit is clearly trashing my savings and future prospects, as it is every other working person’s. Seriously, screw anyone who acknowledges it, supports it or enables it! To my eyes Labour have left it far, far too late to fight it. They blew it.

The result of the democratic Brexit referendum was to leave. As has been said on here countless times this result simply could not have been ignored by Labour. Had Labour 'fought it' as you put it from the off they'd have been absolutely slaughtered in the last GE and Britain would now already be out of the EU.

Labour agreed amongst themselves at their party conference in 2017 to try to find a compromise by way of a soft Brexit which would have involved a customs union and still very close relations with the EU, designed to safeguard jobs and so on, so there would be Brexit but not a potentially very damaging Tory hard, or, no deal Brexit.

Labour have fought against Tory Brexit in all its forms consistently. And I mean the party and Corbyn, who you seem to think rules with an iron fist. He doesn't, he leads by consensus.

These are facts, not Momentum propaganda memes/tropes!

You know all this. You are fully aware of it yet continue to relentlessly declare that Corbyn/Labour enabled, supported etc the ugly nationalist project you see Brexit to be.

This is intellectual dishonesty. Have you not noticed that your attacks have become so unhinged that they're not even getting many likes anymore?

I'd take a step back, Tony, and look at your behaviour, as to be honest it has in part led to a sometimes nasty, vindictive atmosphere here.