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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+25)?

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ff1d1l

pfm Member
There has been a systematic assault taking place on Irish democracy from a political establishment that seems to suffer from blind Europhilia for many years. Consider the following;

The 1937 Constitution sets out that sovereignty, law and governmental authority reside with, and are derived from, the people. Therefore, should there be any proposed change to that Constitution, the people have first to be consulted by referendum. The 1972 EEC Accession Treaty entailed that law emanting from the European Treaties would override any conflicting provisions in Irish law. Both the main parties, which carried an easy majority of the vote and which had dominated Irish politics for decades were pro-EEC, whilst Sinn Fein, the Labour Party and the Unions were against. As in the UK, there was little real appreciation of the real connotations of joining a supranationalist bloc, and proposal to join was agreed by the people in the May 1972 Accession Referendum. Similar referenda took place to permit the Single European Act, the Maastricht Treaty, the Nice, Lisbon Treaties and the Eurozone Stability Treaties to be ratified. However, each of these later referenda were characterised by unconstitutional behaviour, deception and duplicity on the part of successive pro-EEC/EU governments.

In the case of the 1986 Single European Act, the government first attempted to railroad the treaty through the Oireachtas by majority vote, but the Supreme Court ruled (Crotty, 1987) that the SEA entailed a further surrender of sovereignty, and that it therefore had to obtain the consent of the people within whom that sovereignty resided. The Haughey government responded by spending public money only on the 'Yes' campaign, something that had never previously happened, and which was ruled 'undemocratic, unconstitutional and unfair' (McKenna 1995) by the Supreme Court in subsequent campaigns, and (in regard of one-sided allocation of free radio broadcasting time) 'illegal and unconstitutional' (Coughlan 2000). Although the Supreme Court found that these earlier campaigns had been carried by means that were variously unconstitutional, undemocratic, unfair and illegal, it did not invalidate the results of the referendums.

Following McKenna the government established the Referendum Commission, and charged it with ensuring that in future referendum campaigns the public were properly informed as to what effect the proposals would have on the Constitution, and of the arguments both for and against the proposals. A properly-informed public then rejected the Nice Treaty in 2001. When the EU Commission and the Irish government attempted a second stab at an unchanged Nice the following year, the Ahern government fast-tracked an amendment to the Referendum Act 1998 removing the Commission's role in informing the public of the Yes/No arguments on the last day of the Oireachtas sitting before the Christmas holiday, with just one day's prior notice to the opposition. There had also been an issue over the possibility of joining a future European Defence Pact, which would contravene Ireland's neutrality, and this was neutered by coupling the Nice Treaty to an undertaking to put any future engagement in a European Defence Pact to a referendum, the two put forward as a joint proposal to which the public could vote either Yes or No to the whole rather than either part, and meaning that anyone who voted No would also be voting to reject a referendum should there be a future proposal for Ireland to join a Euro Army. You could call this chicanery, or sleight of hand. I'll settle for either.

And so it goes on, through Lisbon, to Brexit. I've already mentioned the disaster that the 'honest, competent people who were serving the interests of the people who elected them' imposed upon Ireland when they frogmarched it into the Euro, or stripped it of its once vast fishing industry, or threw away its neutrality.

But this is utterly futile, and I'm becoming bored.
Great alternative truth narrative. That will be why ROI citizens hate the EU and look at brexit and the UK governments handling of it with such undisguised and unconcealed envy.
 
Great alternative truth narrative. That will be why ROI citizens hate the EU and look at brexit and the UK governments handling of it with such undisguised and unconcealed envy.

A truth narrative, whichever way you choose to look at it.

Why would the Irish look at the UK government's handling of Brexit with envy?

More like awe at the lengths TM went to to keep the UK in the EU CU orbit whilst pretending otherwise, I should think.
 
Have you been to a meeting?

“Ireland has failed us all”,

via Imgflip Meme Generator

I much prefer this version:

D1DIb46XgAA4YuA.jpg
 
eternumviti appears to have swallowed various Wikipedia entries on Ireland and is (very) busily vomiting them all over the forum. Ewww. The smell...
 
eternumviti appears to have swallowed various Wikipedia entries on Ireland and is (very) busily vomiting them all over the forum. Ewww. The smell...

Wikipedia? If you like, but no.

What are your alternative truths?
 
A truth narrative

If you knew what those two words meant you wouldn’t be putting them together! Someone no doubt has the link, but doesn’t ROI have one of the highest EU approval ratings? That could be relevant to the people living in the country.

What have we learnt? Apparently it’s all very well pointing out that someone’s house is on fire when you’re standing in the middle of the bonfire you yourself lit, which in turn set their house on fire. Colin likes yelling burn baby burn and we deeply deeply care about orange farmers and developing free trade all over the world whilst wanting to slash our world development fund.

Good neighbours work together in both good times and bad. The sick man of Europe turns out to be a good time Charlie.
 
If you knew what those two words meant you wouldn’t be putting them together! Someone no doubt has the link, but doesn’t ROI have one of the highest EU approval ratings? That could be relevant to the people living in the country.

What have we learnt? Apparently it’s all very well pointing out that someone’s house is on fire when you’re standing in the middle of the bonfire you yourself lit, which in turn set their house on fire. Colin likes yelling burn baby burn and we deeply deeply care about orange farmers and developing free trade all over the world whilst wanting to slash our world development fund.

Good neighbours work together in both good times and bad. The sick man of Europe turns out to be a good time Charlie.

This is shoot the messenger time. Pointing out the financial plight of the republic of Ireland and the consequences of a no deal on them if they toe the EU party line is not yelling burn baby burn. But now you mention it that is what the EU is prepared to do to a member state to ensure the survival of the federal state. If you think that the EU will fork out free cash assistance it is unlikely, unless you know different?

If 'by slashing world development fund' you are referring to my comment on why are we giving money to set up companies in India when their government is firing rockets into space then yes i do believe the development cash in that case should be spent on setting up businesses in the UK.
 
My last point is very simple. ROI will have a lot of powerful friends to help when the chips are down. We’ll have some previously abusive and neglected relationships in which we now wish to be best mates...
 
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Bit like a bojo news article. Full of bojoism's i.e loose connection with truth and reality.
Curious has any society or democracy moved you in a positive way?

Where do you get all this? Who makes it up? Nobody believes it in Ireland.

I think that’s perhaps your frankest expression of blackmail yet. The condescension and the implicit threat of retaliation if Ireland doesn’t side with Tory England. Ain’t going to happen. Behind Ireland the EU, the U.S House of Representatives and a massive pro-Ireland lobby in America.

You'll get the hang of unions one day.

The Greece problems were seen as self-inflicted.
The EU is likely to treat Eire much better as a reward for loyalty and a signal to others.

^Bonkers!

I don't usually comment on your posts, but the above is bonkers.

I can sympathise. It must be tedious doing all that cutting and pasting.

Great alternative truth narrative...

eternumviti appears to have swallowed various Wikipedia entries on Ireland and is (very) busily vomiting them all over the forum. Ewww. The smell...

Fact me 'til I fart.

So there we have it. In two days nobody has raised a single properly thought out and researched argument against the points that I have made regarding Ireland and the part that the EU has played in its rise and fall. Nobody has countered the figures that I gave on economic growth, or lack of it, in the decade and a half after the Republic joined the EEC in 1972, my points about how misleading Irish GDP figures are due to the distortions of multinational intellectual property, the false advantages of the favourable Corporation tax regime, the appalling debt to GDP/GNP figures, or the highest per capita/GDP debt ratio in the EU, the economic destruction caused by the introduction of the Euro, the cost of the loss of fisheries when compared with the gains of EU membership, the countercyclicality of the Irish economy with that of the EU when 2/3rds of its exports of goods and services are to the US/UK, the ECB/EC/IMF mugging when things turned bad, the clearly recorded history of successive Europhile Irish government chicanery in defiance of the most basic principle of the Irish Constitution, etc, etc, etc.

These are documented facts, and they are palapable, provable truths. And what do I get in response?

All of the above, and precisely nothing of substance to refute a single shred of what I have said. A series of pathetic attempts at belittling put-downs, culminating in a majestically perfect girl's playground shriek 'Oooh look, Mary-Jane's been sick, and it really smells. Eeeew!'. I mean, really?

If you really believe that I am wrong, make the case, properly ffs. There's another side to everything, there's nothing I've said that can't be properly challenged. Truth isn't linear, or simple. Thank God PsB's not active on this thread at the moment. He would be tearing shreds off of me, but at least we would be having a debate, and I would have to raise my game and exercise some rigour. You lot make it too easy.
 
Ah ET I asked you a simple question is there any democracy that rocks your boat that you reckon is the utopia that should be pursued? No answer. Surely that is an easy one?

All your huge lengthy posts are just opinions with a host of facts jumbled around. I have lived in Ireland all my life. We are on a different planet now compared to the sixties and seventies.
EU membership and getting out from the stranglehold of the UK has brought huge prosperity. Yes definitely like a lot of democracies including the UK who were not in the Euro we had a banking crisis.
The US had a meltdown also. Asian economies have had recessions etc etc. You mangle a range of facts and present them as a negative and all down to EU membership. Sorry it is not a coherent and is not true. It is your opinion so fine have it.

Our fishing industry for example is like the UK's was way underdeveloped. The mistake our government and country made at that time was not to get their act together and get a decent fleet together to compete. We are learning as we go.
As so many others have pointed out to you the EU is ultimately a win for members. You can't think like Boris and expect that you have to take everything and give nothing. That is how he appears to act in his private life. His vision for the UK is similar. It aint' going to happen. He might get his Brexit but it will not be pretty for the majority.

I wouldn't be here right now if that wasn't pretty much precisely what moves me.

What moves you? We can clearly discount democracy.
 
No, the only Brexit agreement is no deal.

They ain't facts Colin. Any cursory glance at economic stats will show how well Ireland has done over the last 30 years. The aberration is the crash in 2008. That has left us and most european countries in a weaker position.
But we are not alone. US debt is mind boggling. Japan has flat lined for nearly two decades. It is not all rosy in the garden.Unless BJ and his merry men have a demonstrable plan to increase and spread economic gain to the many moving outside of the EU is just an Etonian debating class game.
 
Facts are not welcome.
But you don’t seem to understand the meaning of many facts. You cut and paste snippets of unrelated facts and data you don’t often understand but hope some will stick in the memory of the reader or as embellishments to the case you’re attempting to make. Much of it’s quite comical as several folk have pointed out to you. But back you come, same tune on the penny whistle of parochial ignorance.
 
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