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Labour at it again... anti-Semitism... #II

Criticising the journalist/programme, and especially before prog' aired, continues to be a deflection.
When Labour officials or member object to legitimate criticism by imputing bad faith to the critic, that's deflection. When they defend themselves against slurs and misrepresentation, that's wholly justifiable.
I agree it isn't easy, but not 'far from'.
That's ime, but my employer's management structure had a clearly signposted and strictly enforced 'no tolerance' policy.
istm re: anti-Semitism this is what's lacking in Labour - hence many years of failure to resolve.
Do you mean the BBC? Because it's not a poster child for how to eliminate racism is it? ISTM that you of all people ought to be able to acknowledge that eliminating racism from a large organisation is not actually possible, and to pretend that it is hampers efforts to challenge and minimise it, which is necessarily a work in progress.
istm a risk/blind spot for us lefty progressive types is believing we, and the orgs we support, couldn't possibly be prejudiced or bigoted.
This is a bit odd given we are humans and such 'orrid things are part of our nature.
Another example of this is Labour's aggressively misogynistic women's officer.
Your obsessive smearing of a young trans woman illustrates your own point perfectly. It's hard to assume good faith on your part when your criticisms of Labour seem to be more or less interchangeable - and when your chief bugbear is so ugly.
 
Come on then, why is it more complicated? It's exactly what i would do in a workplace. The LP is a workplace like any other.
Name me a workplace where people become employees by filling in a form and setting up a direct debit, and are not paid. The Labour Party has half a million random members of the public in it. FFS.
 
I'm talking about officials, as you well know. FFS.

For members of the LP who are not officials, it's easier still. "These are not the views of the LP. The LP does not endorse these views."
 
When Labour officials or member object to legitimate criticism by imputing bad faith to the critic, that's deflection. When they defend themselves against slurs and misrepresentation, that's wholly justifiable.

I agree, although istm some alleged BBC "slurs and misrepresentation" are no such thing.

Do you mean the BBC? Because it's not a poster child for how to eliminate racism is it? ISTM that you of all people ought to be able to acknowledge that eliminating racism from a large organisation is not actually possible, and to pretend that it is hampers efforts to challenge and minimise it, which is necessarily a work in progress.

ime in my department racism, homophobia and to some extent misogyny were not tolerated.
As a staff rep' I was directly involved in a number of cases where employees lost their jobs as a direct result of such ignorance.

Of course Auntie was enormous (still quite big), and isn't perfect.
Indeed I'm waiting for you to ask for more information about this on the 'here is the news' thread.

Your obsessive smearing of a young trans woman illustrates your own point perfectly.
It's hard to assume good faith on your part when your criticisms of Labour seem to be more or less interchangeable - and when your chief bugbear is so ugly.

It's not a smear. Lily Madigan has conducted herself in an aggressively misogynistic manner on numerous occasions.
imo/e there's currently a lot of misogyny in Labour.
istm the same half arsed efforts to facilitate progress that resulted this are also at the root of the anti-Semitism omnishambles.

Trampling marginalised groups in a half arsed attempt to lift a marginalised group isn't liberation. It's more oppression.
This equally applies to amongst others Jews and women.
 
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What was wrong with the Chakrabarti Report? It certainly didn't conclude that there was no antisemitism in the Labour Party. And what knee-jerk reaction?
There was a general reaction that it was a sham, I have no view on it either way. I was just trying to illustrate how people believe what they want to.
 
What was wrong with the Chakrabarti Report? It certainly didn't conclude that there was no antisemitism in the Labour Party. And what knee-jerk reaction?

I thought it was a good report with a good approach to resolving issues without overly pointing fingers or applying blame. She said there was an issue and it could be resolved by recommendations a, b, c etc.

It was unfortunate that not only did the tories and others attack her and the report but Labour members did as well.

I've noticed in the last few years that with Corbyn and more militant/marxist type lefties joining there has been a shift in attitude which IMHO comes from support for Palestine against Israel and manifests as a hatred for Israel and anything associated with it i.e jews.
 
If it was that easy Steve, don’t you think he would have acted by now?

Not if eradication of anti-Semitism has a lower priority then it should, doing so would have unacceptable consequences for the leadership/party, etc.
 
I thought it was a good report with a good approach to resolving issues without overly pointing fingers or applying blame. She said there was an issue and it could be resolved by recommendations a, b, c etc.

It was unfortunate that not only did the tories and others attack her and the report but Labour members did as well.

I've noticed in the last few years that with Corbyn and more militant/marxist type lefties joining there has been a shift in attitude which IMHO comes from support for Palestine against Israel and manifests as a hatred for Israel and anything associated with it i.e jews.
Can I ask how you came to notice this?
 
Name me a workplace where people become employees by filling in a form and setting up a direct debit, and are not paid. The Labour Party has half a million random members of the public in it. FFS.

This is disingenuous at the least. When you join the party you give your money to further their ideals, and agree to uphold their principles. If you don’t, you should be out. It’s not hard. Well, it seems to be unless you’re Alistair Campbell.
 
This is disingenuous at the least. When you join the party you give your money to further their ideals, and agree to uphold their principles. If you don’t, you should be out. It’s not hard. Well, it seems to be unless you’re Alistair Campbell.
I agree. But managing that? The social media output of 100s of thousands of people? Hard enough without people deliberately blurring the line between members and non-members. And then what do you do with the stuff that's not actually antisemitic but a bit whiffy, when we're talking about ordinary members of the public, very likely politically inexperienced? Wouldn't education be better than excluding them from political participation, and the chance to learn, contribute? There's some stuff on this thread alone that is of this nature, and it's not from Labour members. Are you going to ban them? It's in your gift.
 
There's some stuff on this thread alone that is of this nature, and it's not from Labour members. Are you going to ban them? It's in your gift.

Can I ask if you used the pfm report function to alert the mods?
 
whataboutism akimbo continues

Come on still. This is attempting to shut down an argument in the same way the use of ‘virtue signalling’ is. Plus you ignored the context in which I made it.

The BBC commission a biased programme about Labour yet allow pretty much free reign to the Brexit company on their news outlets. And it does matter that there is/has been no Conservative investigation especially as we are having a Johnson coronation.

The BBC could have made an unbiased programme about racism in political parties/companies. Yet they did not do this.

I assume you’ve seen the reporting on the programme and the revelations about the producer and contributors? This doesn’t bother you?

Stephen
 
Can I ask if you used the pfm report function to alert the mods?
I've said often enough that I think overestimating the influence of Israel, and in particular blaming Labour's woes on the Israel lobby, is borderline at best (and lets the UK off the hook). It can earn you a suspension at least from Labour in the wrong circumstances. But I wouldn't condemn anyone for stating those views, I think it's a dangerous misunderstanding of the situation rather than outright antisemitism, and it's really not up to me to police it on PFM, beyond my usual finger-wagging. But Labour officials regularly have to say, Well, what should we do with this guy? for stating exactly these views, in person or on social media.

I just don't think that's as easy as some people make out, and the proof of it is that a moderator here, who has clear views about antisemitism and about what Labour should do about it, is actually much more lax than Labour in dealing with this kind of thing, and this is with a handful of people, not hundreds of thousands.
 
istm a risk/blind spot for us lefty progressive types is believing we, and the orgs we support, couldn't possibly be prejudiced or bigoted.
This is a bit odd given we are humans and such 'orrid things are part of our nature.
Another example of this is Labour's aggressively misogynistic women's officer.

ISTM that you posted the above in response to this from me:

The operative word of course being 'If'. Despite all of the noise, I simply refuse to believe that Labour is a fundamentally AS party.

I stand by what I say because I do not believe that AS is a widespread 'thing' within Labour, but do not and cannot categorically say that there is no AS within Labour.
ISTM that quite apart from the confusion created by the failure on the part of many to differentiate between 'anti Semitic' and 'anti Israeli'.. Labour's biggest problem is in dealing with the notion of AS within its ranks.

'When did you stop beating your wife' can be a hellish question to deal with.
 


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