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Interconnects - shielded or unshielded?

Would you agree that power leads are the best place to use them? I see them on USB cables sometimes (maybe due to noise from the host device), but never really on analogue cables...

Use them anywhere but with the proviso above on speaker cable (or anything with much current). Obviously they must go as close as possible to the end of the cable you are trying to protect from RFI, ie if on an interconnect then close to the phono plug. If you are not getting radio interference you probably don't need them...
 
The ferrite tubes on usb cables are there to limit emissions. They surround all the wires, so power both go and return pass through and cancel, so they only affect common mode signals.
 
Did you mean gnome :) what is a dome for in a garden, fall out shelter ?

Astronomical. It used to have a telescope in it. A previous owner of our house was the chief technician in the Uni's Astronomy dept. When he retired he emigrated to somewhere like Arizona IIUC and took the telescope with him. Left the dome behind. It's pretty big and hemispherical metallic hemisphere. So an excellent reflector for radar.
 
Can one of the technicians tell me where my thinking is wrong:

I think that cable shielding would only make sense in a truly balanced interconnect system, where the signal wires are independent from the shield. So the shield is shielding, and nothing else.

Whereas in the standard unbalanced connection where shield and ground are connected - and the signal is the voltage difference between ground and positive - having the shield absorb all extraneous interference and the signal wire absorbing none would mean, that the interference signal messes up the difference between ground and positive. So a shield would have quite the opposite effect as intended.

Help me out, please.
 
I think that cable shielding would only make sense in a truly balanced interconnect system, where the signal wires are independent from the shield. So the shield is shielding, and nothing else.

Whereas in the standard unbalanced connection where shield and ground are connected - and the signal is the voltage difference between ground and positive - having the shield absorb all extraneous interference and the signal wire absorbing none would mean, that the interference signal messes up the difference between ground and positive. So a shield would have quite the opposite effect as intended.

I’ve been quietly pondering the same question, one that is especially true with vintage amps like my Leak Stereo 20 and Quad 303 where signal return and chassis earth appear to be the same thing. I have had issues with earth loops/buzzes in my system that has required lifting the earth wire of some source components, e.g. my Deltec PDM3 DAC really doesn’t like its mains earth if hooked up to the Verdier/303, though does end up grounded through the interconnects.

As such am I right in assuming much of what is being discussed here really only applies to modern kit where the system ground plane is somehow ‘floated’/isolated from mains earth? I’m still too much of a beginner in electronics to understand this, but it is clear there is something different about the way vintage kit works. I remember many issues from back when I ran a little recording studio too, and the accepted wisdom there was to ground the mixing desk (the thing you touch!) and lift the earth of anything that buzzed if plugged in (hopefully remembering to reconnect it later if using it in a different context!). I’ve always just applied that to hi-fi viewing the preamp/amp as conceptually being the mixer.
 
There's no difference between modern and vintage really. Quad 303 has a "clean ground" for the input via a, IIRC, 22R resistor (10 - 33 would work much the same) which you will find in the ground rail of the circuit diagram part way along, Radford STA25 has one (68R and only on one channel IIRC), leak doesn't but (again IIRC as I can't arsed to look under mine with all those extra dangling capacitors etc!), takes the input grounds back to star ground near the rear smoothing cap. Some modern amps do.. others don't... This is NOT necessarily mains earth I'm talking about here BTW! Some gear will be double insulated and have no mains ground, other items will have an earth lift and a few a switchable earth lift.
 
leak doesn't but (again IIRC as I can't arsed to look under mine with all those extra dangling capacitors etc!), takes the input grounds back to star ground near the rear smoothing cap.

Yes, that is correct. Mine had been botched when I bought it in that the (modern) RCAs had been hard-mounted to the case with no isolation. I’ve since corrected this so the earthing is back how it was designed. Seemed to sound a bit better afterwards, but I may have been imagining it as it took me quite a while to do!

I never fully understood say the Naim system where the preamp PSU (HiCap etc) and power amps had mains earth, but apparently the whole system was star-earthed to the HiCap somehow. Whatever it was it seemed to work well as I can’t ever remember having an earth-loop in all the years I owned Naim and I connected all kinds of weird stuff up to it (lots of studio kit, vintage synths etc). Bloody DIN plugs though. I so hate DIN plugs!
 
Can one of the technicians tell me where my thinking is wrong:

I think that cable shielding would only make sense in a truly balanced interconnect system, where the signal wires are independent from the shield. So the shield is shielding, and nothing else.

Whereas in the standard unbalanced connection where shield and ground are connected - and the signal is the voltage difference between ground and positive - having the shield absorb all extraneous interference and the signal wire absorbing none would mean, that the interference signal messes up the difference between ground and positive. So a shield would have quite the opposite effect as intended.

Help me out, please.

How long have you got? A full answer would take pages and graphs and dull stuff...

The real key is the source impedance of the interference - how well it can 'couple' into your wanted signal. There are basically two regimes - magnetic (fields coupled from transformers, and heavy currents flowing in large loops locally) and electrostatic - better known as capacitative coupling.

The former 'couples' most effectively into low impedances; the latter most-effectively into high impedances. and for the purposes of argument, the break point between the two turns out to be , very roughly, only around 300ohms - a pretty low impedance.

Shielding magnetic fields is therefore a difficult thing, but this impedance break-point is a useful fact: since sources are generally 100ohms or less these days it means - for a lot of purposes short of fundamentally-broken design - interconnect shielding works (mostly) in the electrostatic domain. and that's easy, you just interpose a conductor between your source interference and your conductors to protect, and tie this shield to a low-impedance point, and for this the source 0v point is the best option. Then, ideally, the source of noise current cannot effectively couple any noise into the signal conductors. There are limits, as davidsrdb has pointed-out, depending on what you need to achieve and how 'good' the shield/ cable geometry can be made.

Now - capacitative impedances are very high, the source might only be a few picofarads, so a source of small RF current coupled-in more than anything else. Since the noise source-impedance is effectively very large, it doesn't often make things worse by inducing so much current that the signal conductor resistance converts it into a noise current in series with the wanted signal. This is how a twisted-pair alone might be 'good-enough' for audio. It is also why shielded cables for audio are tied only one end on single-ended interconnects - it's effectively a 0v-referenced shield, and all that is needed to 'protect ' the signal send-return pair - but connect it both ends and the noise current does appear added to the signal (because the signal 0v within, like any wire at RF, has a non-zero impedance, esp. at HF)

tl;dr:
  • Twisted-pairs work by ensuring the pair of conductors present, as near as can be, the same cross-section to magnetic fields in all directions - so the magnetically-induced currents largely cancel, and therefore induced noise voltage is minimised. But have no protection against capacitative coupling of noise currents. Low source impedance of the (wanted, audio) signal helps here, so in many systems & circumstances an unshielded twisted-pair can easily be more than good enough.
  • Shielded twisted-pairs add shielding against capacitative coupling, and are usu. used with the shield bonded to signal-0v at the source end.
  • 'Star-quad' takes this geometric effect one step further against magnetically-induced noise sources. It's a twisted-pair of twisted-pairs, a geometrically-elegant solution because it nests-together so efficiently there's an utter minimum of loop-area between conductors for mag fields to couple-into.
  • Shielded star-quad puts things pretty-much beyond contention (all the star-quad cables you can buy, are shielded - because starquad cables are designed usu. for use in balanced interconnects; and because, if you want best shielding, you want the best possible)
NB for shielding to be effective, it does not have to be bonded to mains Earth. It only has to be rather low-impedance compared with your target unit's input impedance in parallel with the source's output impedance. it effectively lets the signal send-return pair work within an environment defined as '0v at the send end'. To the nth degree for audio the capacitative- coupled shield noise current has zero effect on the inner signal loop, because it is not in series with it. If you allow it to become so, then it can be a problem (For contrast - Earth Loops are firmly in 'unwanted-noise-currents in cables causing problems' category!)

(The difference between Mains Earth and signal 0v is the root of so much misunderstanding in audio a different, likely longer, rant is required)


Afterthought for clarity: Balanced connections work mostly because the function of the shield as a separate non-signal conductor is to shield, yes, but also essentially to 'bond' the chassis together to ensure there is no noise voltage between them, leaving the signal conductors unmolested by carrying stray currents.
 
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How long have you got? A full answer would take pages and graphs and dull stuff...

The real key is the source impedance of the interference - how well it can 'couple' into your wanted signal. There are basically two regimes - magnetic (fields coupled from transformers, and heavy currents flowing in large loops locally) and electrostatic - better known as capacitative coupling.

The former 'couples' most effectively into low impedances; the latter most-effectively into high impedances. and for the purposes of argument, the break point between the two turns out to be , very roughly, only around 300ohms - a pretty low impedance.

Shielding magnetic fields is therefore a difficult thing, but this impedance break-point is a useful fact: since sources are generally 100ohms or less these days it means - for a lot of purposes short of fundamentally-broken design - interconnect shielding works (mostly) in the electrostatic domain. and that's easy, you just interpose a conductor between your source interference and your conductors to protect, and tie this shield to a low-impedance point, and for this the source 0v point is the best option. Then, ideally, the source of noise current cannot effectively couple any noise into the signal conductors: there are limits, as davidsrdb has pointed -out, depending on what you need to achieve and how 'good' the shield/ cable geometry can be made.

Now - capacitative impedances are very high, the source might only be a few picofarads, so a source of small RF current coupled-in more than anything else. Since the noise source impedance is effectively very large, it doesn't often make things worse by inducing so much current that the signal conductor resistance converts it into a noise current in series with the wanted signal. This is how a twisted-pair alone might be 'good-enough' for audio. It is also why shielded cables for audio are tied only one end on single-ended interconnects - it's effectively a 0v-referenced shield, and all that is needed to 'protect ' the signal send-return pair - but connect it both ends and the noise current does appear added to the signal (because the signal 0v within, like any wire at RF, has a non-zero impedance)

tl;dr:
  • Twisted-pairs work by ensuring the pair of conductors present, as near as can be, the same cross-section to magnetic fields in all directions - so the induced currents largely cancel, and therefore induced noise voltage is minimised. But have no protection against capacitative coupling of noise currents. Low signal source impedance helps here.
  • Shielded twisted-pairs add shielding against capacitative coupling, and are usu. used with the shield bonded to signal-0v at the source end.
  • 'Star-quad' takes this geometric effect one step further against magnetically-induced noise sources
  • Shielded star-quad puts things pretty-much beyond contention.
NB for shielding to be effective, it does not have to be bonded to mains Earth. It only has to be rather low-impedance compared with your target unit's input impedance in parallel with the source's output impedance. it effectively lets the signal send-return pair work within an environment defined as '0v at the send end'. To the nth degree for audio the capacitative- coupled shield noise current has zero effect on the inner signal loop, because it is not in series with it. If you allow it to become so, then it can be a problem (For contrast - Earth Loops are firmly in 'unwanted-noise-currents in cables causing problems' category!)

(The difference between Mains Earth and signal 0v is the root of so much misunderstanding in audio a different, likely longer, rant is required)


Afterthought for clarity: Balanced connections work mostly, because the function of the shield as a separate conductor is to 'bond' the chassis together to ensure there is no noise potential voltage between them, leaving the signal conductors unmolested; and balanced connections rely on balanced impedances for best effect, not balanced voltages (a subject for another day)

Contentious... it depends... and definitely a subject for another day...

'Fraid my reply to Tony's question was a trite skimming of the surface of an answer precisely 'cos I didn't want to go to the lengths you just went to! ....and still only partially covered it! Good though:)
 
How long have you got? A full answer would take pages and graphs and dull stuff...

Thank you, Martin, much appreciated. I will have to digest this.

On a quick perusal, though, I did not find a point addressing my primary dilemma: Why shield when the signal equals the difference between two conductors. Then twisting those two should be enough, or quadtwisting.

But as I said, I will try and digest.
 
It is also why shielded cables for audio are tied only one end on single-ended interconnects - it's effectively a 0v-referenced shield, and all that is needed to 'protect ' the signal send-return pair - but connect it both ends and the noise current does appear added to the signal (because the signal 0v within, like any wire at RF, has a non-zero impedance, esp. at HF)
in a coax cable isn’t the return the shield though?
I took Achim’s question to be about coax. Mind you now I see that he is perhaps asking about twisted pairs
 
Yes, Adam, my question was about coax single ended standard home interconnect, where the shield is connected to the signal ground.

Your quotation of Martin's is spot on, though.

Now I need to understand why with the shield only connected one end, at sender's side, it does NOT add the noise to the signal (even if in reverse, as the noise is added to the ground, thereby reducing signal-ground-difference).
 
OK, it dawns on me - the noise addition at sender's ground is not influencing much because the impedance at receiver's end is much higher.

Correct?
 
Connecting the shield at only one end turns into a very efficient VHF antenna.
When we had to break the low frequency path in a lan product, a 330pF 3kV capacitor at one end cured the VHF effect
 
Sorry if I have got this wrong but isn’t the shield tied to ground at both ends in coax? In the case of a twisted pair it’s different.
 
(The difference between Mains Earth and signal 0v is the root of so much misunderstanding in audio a different, likely longer, rant is required)

Now I need to understand why with the shield only connected one end, at sender's side, it does NOT add the noise to the signal (even if in reverse, as the noise is added to the ground, thereby reducing signal-ground-difference).
I have a feeling it’s to do with this
 
Sorry if I have got this wrong but isn’t the shield tied to ground at both ends in coax? In the case of a twisted pair it’s different.

In a standard coax, yes, but not in cables like say vdH D102 which is a twin core cable with an outer coax screen that is connected at one end only.
 
It may not be 'tied' to ground at one end, but *provide* the ground reference there.

Consider the traditional approach of only having the preamp connected to mains 'earth' and using the coaxes from it to the sources and power amp as their ground reference. i.e. they *aren't* themselves grounded to the mains earth so far as the signal is concerned, but use the coax outer as their 'ground' point. In effect, the outer of the coax makes them all behave as if they're all in one big metal box that is earthed.
 


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