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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+21)?

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Until a Labour government led us into an invasion of Iraq, I had voted Labour in every single council, Westminster, European and Scottish Parliament election from the age I was first allowed to vote. LibDem thereafter because I wasn’t going to vote for a party that was responsible for so many Iraqi and other deaths based on an outright lie. 2010 was when I began voting SNP- no longer prepared to vote for a party shoring up the Tories. I’ve liked what the SNP have done in Scotland, even taking a higher rate of income tax out of my pocket to support public spending. I like that they are a European Party and have opened the door to immigrants who contribute to our economy. Scotland needs 300,000 working immigrants to cover the aging demographic shift and above all they intend to keep Scotland’s place in the EU. This stands above all else for me and so many people I know and I’m amazed how many of my friends and relatives have shifted their support to the SNP. There’s no going back now.

I hate the SNP Dec, I can't forget or forgive them for Thatcher and going back further to the 30s they were an anti-catholic party and there are still remnants of sectarianism within the party and they're hopeless at running the country but they have popular support but eventually they will tear themselves apart.

Also, most of the leadership were employed or were partners in the same legal firm in Edinburgh.
 
Indeed, my family voted SNP X 2, Green X 1 and one no voter (me).

Previously, as a family, we all voted Labour.

3 years ago my three were all big fans of Corbyn. Now they feel let down by how quickly he agreed with the Tories to end free movement and not stand up for remaining in the EU. They all came to the same conclusion without any discussion with me. Two now support the SNP and the third I'm not sure about. They tick the boxes for voting Labour and 10 years ago they probably would have.
 
Problem with UK politics all over is the dearth of leadership. Almost none of them are leading - they are simply chasing their constituencies, running after them out of fear of alienating them, slavishly pandering to prejudice and ignorance. That is the opposite of "Leading" - which means making the arguments and changing minds.
 
I hate the SNP Dec, I can't forget or forgive them for Thatcher and going back further to the 30s they were an anti-catholic party and there are still remnants of sectarianism within the party and they're hopeless at running the country but they have popular support but eventually they will tear themselves apart.

Also, most of the leadership were employed or were partners in the same legal firm in Edinburgh.
Tony, Scotland is a very different place now- even from when you and I were at school and I dare say the SNP is a very different party now from forty years ago.
 
Until a Labour government led us into an invasion of Iraq, I had voted Labour in every single council, Westminster, European and Scottish Parliament election from the age I was first allowed to vote. LibDem thereafter because I wasn’t going to vote for a party that was responsible for so many Iraqi and other deaths based on an outright lie.

2010 was when I began voting SNP- no longer prepared to vote for a party shoring up the Tories. I’ve liked what the SNP have done in Scotland, even taking a higher rate of income tax out of my pocket to support public spending. I like that they are a European Party and have opened the door to immigrants who contribute to our economy. Scotland needs 300,000 working immigrants to cover the aging demographic shift and above all they intend to keep Scotland’s place in the EU.
Remaining an EU citizen stands above all else for me and for so many people I know and I’m amazed how many of my friends and relatives have shifted their support to the SNP. There’s no going back now.

I've often said that if LAbour had a leader on top of their game like Nicola Sturgeon, they'd be in Downing St this minute. And there would be none of this Brexit crap. But where the SNP would be I don't know!
 
Tony, Scotland is a very different place now- even from when you and I were at school and I dare say the SNP is a very different party now from forty years ago.

I know I live here Dec, I honestly can't believe how much Glasgow has changed but in some places it's back in 1950 which the tourists never really penetrate even if they go to visit those places.

The SNP have only changed their coat mate there's still some real unsavoury characters behind the curtains and anyway I can't in all honesty vote for a nationalist party that goes completely against everything I was brought up with.
 
I've often said that if LAbour had a leader on top of their game like Nicola Sturgeon, they'd be in Downing St this minute. And there would be none of this Brexit crap. But where the SNP would be I don't know!

I can't stand her either she's a bloody nodding dog like that clown knuessenberg.
 
I honestly don't have an opinion about that Dec for reasons already posted.
I suppose the other thing I should say is that I’ve never been a member of any political party though I have friends who are or indeed work for political parties. I can’t summon up that level of interest though I quite enjoy hearing the ins and outs of it.
 
Sheesh, if you can't even read a simple election result without spinning it like crazy to mean the opposite of what happened, what hope is there?

Here are the facts.
The three main winners in the European elections were:
1) the liberals of ALDE (UK LibDems, Macron, FDP, as evil a bunch of centrists as you can think of): up 36 seats or +52%. ALDE went from fourth to third largest group.
2) the far right ENF (Lega Norte, FN, Vlaams Bel., FPÖ): +22 seats or +61%, all from Lega Norte. The ENF is still only in 7th place.
3) the mainstream Greens: +17 seats, +32%. The Greens went from 6th to 4th largest.
The other far right group, EFDD (incl. Brexit Party) picked up 12 seats +28%, not exactly a landslide.

Losers:
1) The traditional pro-EU right (EPP) dropped 38 seats (-18%). Mediocre performance by the CDU, and the French LR got slaughtered by Macron and the FN.
2) the socialdems were down about the same: -32 seats or -17%. 11 of those seats were lost by the German SPD, 10 by Corbyn's Labour and 8 by the incredible vanishing French socialists, so the phenomenon is not confined to the UK.
3) The Eurosceptic ECR (True Finns, PiS, Tories, SWE Dem) lost 14 seats/18% and 3 places, now ranked 6th.
4) The nearest thing to your "systemic, egalitarian reform", the left wing GUE/NGL (die Linke, Syriza, assorted Communists, Sinn Fein etc.) lost 14 seats (27%): not exactly an endorsement.

Looking at it more broadly, the far right/populist lot made gains in some places and lost in others: gains in Italy (Salvini up big time but 5S down), small gains in the UK, flat in France (Le Pen actually lost one seat), down in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, etc. Overall, far right and Eurosceptic parties picked up a few % but are still where they were last time: about a quarter of the vote, with such widely different agendas that it takes three different groups to accommodate their rivalries and dissensions. The harder left took a beating.

Centrism is alive and well in Europe. Things will get done in the EU by some coalition of moderate right, moderate left, centrist liberals and greens. If you can't see that, you haven't analysed the results enough.
Well when I cast an Olympian eye over it I see centrism as a whole struggling to ward off the extreme right and the centre left, which is what h.g. was talking about, making gains only where they've broken with centrism proper and opposed austerity and/or offered green reforms. Maybe a more granular analysis would indicate great things in store for centrist austerians and immigrant-bashers. You can fill me in on Macron and co's vision for the future.
 
Jess Phillips on Alistair Campbell being expelled:

Yep I do have thoughts, he was expelled quicker than a man who threatened to kill me, quicker than a man in my CLP who denied the Holocaust, both are only still suspended.” (Twitter)
Love Jess. So authentic.
 
Well when I cast an Olympian eye over it I see centrism as a whole struggling to ward off the extreme right and the centre left, which is what h.g. was talking about, making gains only where they've broken with centrism proper and opposed austerity and/or offered green reforms. Maybe a more granular analysis would indicate great things in store for centrist austerians and immigrant-bashers. You can fill me in on Macron and co's vision for the future.
Sean, once the centre goes, we are truly f***ed. Britain is heading somewhere very ugly and we’re only at the beginning. BTW, they’ll saw the legs from under yer Olympus.
 
Sean, once the centre goes, we are truly f***ed. Britain is heading somewhere very ugly and we’re only at the beginning.
The "centre" is how we got here. Decades of competitive immigrant/benefits-claimant-bashing. Check out Tony's (B!) recent interventions: they're still doing it. They've learned nothing. Centrism is not going to face down the financial sector, it's not going to close the detention centres, it's not going to take the war machine off its tit. Not for the first time it's socialism or barbarism.
 
Well when I cast an Olympian eye over it I see centrism as a whole struggling to ward off the extreme right and the centre left, which is what h.g. was talking about, making gains only where they've broken with centrism proper and opposed austerity and/or offered green reforms.

Care to mention any examples of these prospering left-of-centre, non-austerian parties your Olympian eye has spotted? I can't think of too many.

Podemos are in trouble. PSOE have had a good run recently but I'm sure you don't approve of them, they are to the right of Podemos, yes, dreaded centrists.
Syriza? Tsipras is losing votes, plus he seems to be enforcing austerity and cozying up to Merkel.
Italy? Renzo's gang are starting a comeback but don't qualify, hard centrist lot.
France? The Socialists are down to single digits, and so is Mélenchon's lot.
Netherlands? Timmermans?
Genuinely puzzled.
 
I can't stand her either she's a bloody nodding dog like that clown knuessenberg.

She is on top of her brief like no one else I have heard. She doesn't deflect, she goes round the question and always comes back to the central issue with facts and figures. Impressive to say the least. Then there are policies like free prescriptions and tuition fees. But I'm not nationalistic in the slightest and I am not impressed with the economics of independence which I think would create more austerity.
 
Labour is once again a Socialist party, thousands of non Socialists doing a flounce won't be missed.

You may not want to hear this, but there is a decent enough chance Labour will win a majority at the next election. The pfm anti-Corbyn, anti-Labour, tory enablers are not representative of how people will vote across the UK in a General Election.

Remind me how that approach worked out for Labour In the 1980s.

We’re not anti socialist- we’re anti stupid and Brexit is an utterly stupid idea.
 
The "centre" is how we got here. Decades of competitive immigrant/benefits-claimant-bashing. Check out Tony's (B!) recent interventions: they're still doing it. They've learned nothing. Centrism is not going to face down the financial sector, it's not going to close the detention centres, it's not going to take the war machine off its tit. Not for the first time it's socialism or barbarism.
If I understand you correctly, Brexit is just another stepping stone and disrupter on the path to your radical political and social model? Im not sure how a majority would democratically choose it unless they were living in desperate times. A bit like fundamentalist Christians hoping for the end times so they can vanquish evil and wave to the sinners, Muslims, Hindus and atheists on the way up to their eternal life.
 
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