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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

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Jeez. What a mess.

May's proposed Brexit deal looks to be the worst of both worlds.

Given a small majority voted for Brexit, and given the potential outcome is either the acceptance of May's proposed deal (highly unlikely) or no deal on exit, I wonder what those voted for Brexit think of this now? Surely in the interests of the country as a whole the Article 50 date should be delayed until such time that a meaningful referendum is held (remain or Brexit, and if you tick Brexit: May's proposed deal or no deal). Surely that is fair?
 
Reservoir Cocks

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Reservoir Cocks

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In case anybody has forgotten, this is what one of these fine gentlemen said in 2016:

"The first calling point of the UK's negotiator immediately after Brexit will not be Brussels, it will be Berlin, to strike a deal... a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else".

Why would anybody now listen to a word they have to say?
 
I didn't think the Establishment would allow Brexit, but no one is quite in control of things. I do agree that the Establishment won't stomach no deal. But, as I said in 1755, May's deal is not dead, as some assume, and in lightly tweaked form it will ensure that no deal doesn't happen. May 's biggest challenge is actually to keep the DUP on board now and post-March, not Corbyn, the people's vote tendency or the Rees-Mogg camp.
I think, re. no deal, you have to recall the old logic of nuclear deterrence. The no deal threat is May's lethal weapon (hence her refusal to rule it out) but while she won't use it, she has to convince enemies and friends alike that she could.
Then as now, you can never quite discount the possibility of an accident. Interesting times...
 
. I agree - I was just pointing out that removing May however it’s done carries the risk that a worse PM will emerge.
This is very true.

So to clarify, when I said earlier that I wished she'd **** off, I of course meant with all the brexit shite in her party. And if Corbyn wants to **** off too with his party's Gammonreich, better still.
 
I didn't think the Establishment would allow Brexit, but no one is quite in control of things. I do agree that the Establishment won't stomach no deal. But, as I said in 1755, May's deal is not dead, as some assume, and in lightly tweaked form it will ensure that no deal doesn't happen. May 's biggest challenge is actually to keep the DUP on board now and post-March, not Corbyn, the people's vote tendency or the Rees-Mogg camp.
I think, re. no deal, you have to recall the old logic of nuclear deterrence. The no deal threat is May's lethal weapon (hence her refusal to rule it out) but while she won't use it, she has to convince enemies and friends alike that she could.
Then as now, you can never quite discount the possibility of an accident. Interesting times...

I have come around to this way of thinking. I think May knows that eventually parliament will be forced to approve her deal, perhaps slightly tweaked, when the only alternative is no-deal and the date is late March. May's method of "seeking consensus" is to hold a gun to everyones' heads. Faced with the prospect of no deal most of the not-clinically-insane Tories will vote for May's deal, and enough Labour MPs will be peeled from JC's suicide pact to carry it.
 
Oh, come on, don't feign ignorance. And it isn't going away - look at France, the protests have been going on for 10 weeks, they've knocked the self-satisfied Cheshire cat smirk off Macron's face, and what are they about? The 'progressive' metropolitan élite and the provincial left behinds. What do they want, the thick, horny-handed paysan provincials? Well, amongst many other things circulating around the general theme of austerity, fuel tax rises and social cuts, less EU. What is Macron's solution to the EU's current 'difficulties'?

More EU.

I won't feign ignorance if you don't... But I'm mystified as to how I'm supposed to grasp which particular 'greater truth' you are referring to in your verbose, yet nebulous/cryptic style.

But whatever, if your analysis ofthe motivations of French protesters is anywhere close, then they too are being manipulated by the right into blaming the EU for the failings of their own Govt. Sound familiar?


It sounds awful. Where are you going to move to?

Like many others here, you erroneously equate my views with my personal circumstances. I'm fine and I'm going nowhere. Sadly, neither are the millions already suffering under the heel of this benighted Govt
., who will soon be suffering more.

Amongst the dissatisfactions expressed by the thick, uneducated provincials in this country which resulted in the vote to leave the UK (?) are lesser lives, poor social integration, social divisions and bitterness.

I suspect you mean the vote to leave the EU. and yes, you are entirely correct in identifying the motivations of many 'leave' voters. Where you, like they, fall down, is in ascribing all of the blame for their troubles to the EU.

Still.. maybe they'll learn.. when it's too late.
 
I have come around to this way of thinking. I think May knows that eventually parliament will be forced to approve her deal, perhaps slightly tweaked, when the only alternative is no-deal and the date is late March. May's method of "seeking consensus" is to hold a gun to everyones' heads. Faced with the prospect of no deal most of the not-clinically-insane Tories will vote for May's deal, and enough Labour MPs will be peeled from JC's suicide pact to carry it.

I agree with the above assessment, though to me, 'no deal' seems the likeliest outcome. It's hard to see what kind of deal could convince enough Tories to support it without splitting the party asunder permanently, whilst getting enough Labour rebels on board at the same time. At the very least May would have to compromise her so-called 'red lines', and she has shown absolutely no inclination to do this despite the scale of her defeat on Tuesday.

Corbyn professed he would only talk to May on the condition she'd drop 'new deal', but that's the one condition he knew she would never agree to.

Never really struck me as consensus-style politician, has Jezza.

Btw, on the question of a second referendum, should it ever come to pass, then FWIW I think the minimum voting age should be reduced to 16, and the result should be determined by two thirds majority.
 
Reservoir Cocks

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Careful what you say, there's some trained killers in amongst that lot. DD is ex-Artist's Rifles (21st SAS), and the short, portly killer with the scowl next to Steve Baker (ex RAF erk) is wearing a Black Watch tie.
 
...if your analysis ofthe motivations of French protesters is anywhere close, then they too are being manipulated by the right into blaming the EU for the failings of their own Govt. Sound familiar?

Yes, it does, very, and it's no less facile upon constant repetition.

Sure, successive French socialist governments have much to answer for, but so too does the EU, because its trophy policy, EMU, has had a disastrous effect on the economy.

I suspect you mean the vote to leave the EU. and yes, you are entirely correct in identifying the motivations of many 'leave' voters. Where you, like they, fall down, is in ascribing all of the blame for their troubles to the EU.

Still.. maybe they'll learn.. when it's too late.

I don't ascribe all of the blame for their troubles on the EU, and never have done, but the EU represents, like Westminster but in every way much more so, remote, distant, unreachable, unresponsive, uncaring government.

Still, as you say, they'll learn. Let them eat cake. Or turnips, whatever.
 
The most significant divisions in the country aren't about Brexit. The Conservatives took a crank issue and magnified it to the point that it now risks tearing the country apart, but it remains a Tory psychodrama - it just happens that the media are utterly hypnotised by it. It's actually a poor vehicle for all the discontent that's been shovelled into it and if it can be defused one way or the other even temporarily I think it will die with the Conservative Party. The real divisions will begin to be addressed the moment the Tories are kicked out.
Brexit is foreground and all consuming. Rudd even managed to sneak out the DWP announcement, slashing pension credits for some couples by £7k pa the night before the vote on May’s deal this week.
 
Nadine and eternumviti sitting in a tree ...

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He Who Dares (occasional weekends only) Resigns Sharpish
Has Nadine ‘been there’ do you think? Or maybe she sees herself as the Party’s Queen of Survival Skills following her appearance with Ant n Dec.
 
Oh, come on, don't feign ignorance.

Projection is the psychological phenomenon where someone denies some aspect of their behavior or attitudes and assumes instead that others are doing or thinking so. It is usually seen as the externalisation of a person's negative traits, placing blame on an outside force such as the environment, a government, a society or other people.

EV, I’m afraid you’ve been caught so many times affecting ignorance here, I’ve now lost count.
 
I don't think there will be no deal.

The Tories business friends won't stand for it.

I read somewhere today there will be some sort of customs union, but it won't called that. Businesses have got plans in place on how they will manage a May type exit, as Carney mentioned yesterday, dropping out our existing arrangements can be managed but it will put costs up, somewhere between 5-10% on good coming in. I know of one very large producer, with most of the production outside of the UK who say it's all sorted in terms of how they operate but the cost is an additional 10% which they will pass on to whoever they can.
 
Yes, it does, very, and it's no less facile upon constant repetition.

Sure, successive French socialist governments have much to answer for, but so too does the EU, because its trophy policy, EMU, has had a disastrous effect on the economy.

Just the socialists then...


I don't ascribe all of the blame for their troubles on the EU, and never have done,

Maybe not.. but according to you THEY do.. in which case they are just as wrong as most UK Brexit fantasists.

but the EU represents, like Westminster but in every way much more so, remote, distant, unreachable, unresponsive, uncaring government.

Would that be the same remote,distant, unreachable, unresponsive, uncaring govt. that funded so many projects to regenerate those same areas of deprivation caused by Tory policy, and which yet were still duped by Tories into voting against the very EU which funded regeneration efforts and supported their human, employment and environmental rights? The same EU which did what any responsible home Govt should have done.. ?

Still, as you say, they'll learn. Let them eat cake. Or turnips, whatever.

Seriously?
 
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