Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+11)?

[Stunsworth]

There was a referendum in 2016, over half of the voting population voted to leave the EU. If the vote had been remain, which would have seen Cameron & Osborne carry on their punishing regime, I would have had to accept it, no matter the devastation to millions of people in this country as I have had to accept the last 3 Tory election wins since 2010. Sometimes we don't get what we want & we have to come to terms with it, I didn't want a Tory Brexit, I wanted labour Brexit, there is little I can do about it other than hope for people to come to their senses & vote for a Labour win or Labour coalition come the next GE. Sitting on her wishing for something which will never happen is utterly fruitless, sitting on here plotting a Tory no deal Brexit in protest against Labour, even more fruitless.

And yet before the referendum Rees-Mogg was saying there should be second referendum once the deal had been decided, and Farage was saying he’d campaign for a second referendum if the result was 52:48 in favour of staying.

 

[Seeker_UK]

This place is full of well educated intelligent people, how do you say Corbyn go about this, I am going to end a democratic vote & cancel Brexit,

Help us out here; is it more democratic or less democratic than representing a minority view of the party he leads?

 

[Lee T]

And yet before the referendum Rees-Mogg was saying there should be second referendum once the deal had been decided, and Farage was saying he’d campaign for a second referendum if the result was 52:48 in favour of staying.

Fair enough if people want this but we havn't got a leave deal to vote on, we have a remain deal, this is where I have a problem with another ref, the only fair option is to include no deal because of May's incompetence to negotiate a fair deal.

 

[Stunsworth]

Fair enough if people want this but we havn't got a leave deal to vote on, we have a remain deal, this is where I have a problem with another ref, the only fair option is to include no deal because of May's incompetence to negotiate a fair deal.

If there’s no deal the choices should be leave with no deal or remain. My gut feeling is that there won’t be a referendum, but I get the feeling it’s more likely now than it was a month or two ago.

 

[Lee T]

Help us out here; is it more democratic or less democratic than representing a minority view of the party he leads?

I read here that many Labour voters wanted to leave, then I read many wanted to remain, which is it & what does it matter, Corbyn will never cancel a democratic vote, he could however offer another ref, but the ref cannot be the deal May negotiated, it's ludicrous, it has to be a leave deal to be fair to all parties concerned.

 

[tuga]

Aye, that Corbyn's a right two-faced tw@t. Making out he's a leftie firebrand, lifelong socialist and all the time he's hobnobbing with Moggsy and Jonners. What a con man.

You're being childish. Now clubbism is clouding your judgement as much as that of the radical brexiB voters... This is not a football league.

 

[Lee T]

If there’s no deal the choices should be leave with no deal or remain. My gut feeling is that there won’t be a referendum, but I get the feeling it’s more likely now than it was a month or two ago.

With May at the helm for 12 months, I see no referendum happening, she will stick with this fantasy of her deal getting through, when it is rejected, she will accept a no deal I feel, she will never cancel Brexit, never happen.
Only chance is a GE, then some other needs to negotiate a new deal, a leave deal not a remain deal as May has, is there time, I don't know, at this stage looks like a no deal to me.

 

[notaclue]

Look at where the author is from. Nuff said.

"Created in 1976, EPPC was the first neocon institute to break ground in the frontal attack on the secular humanists. For nearly three decades, EPPC has functioned as the cutting edge of the neoconservative-driven culture war against progressive theology and secularism, and the associated effort to ensure right-wing control of the Republican Party. It explicitly sought to unify the Christian right with the neoconservative religious right, which was mostly made up of agnostics back then. A central part of its political project was to "clarify and reinforce the bond between the Judeo-Christian moral tradition and the public debate over domestic and foreign policy." Directed by Elliott Abrams from 1996-2001, EPPC counts among its board members well connected figures in the neocon matrix including Jeane Kirkpatrick, Richard Neuhaus, and Mary Ann Glendon." https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Ethics_and_Public_Policy_Center

Well, well, well. Guess who's pimping that Washington Post article.

Bernard Jenkin https://twitter.com/bernardjenkin/status/1074297989622087680 and Dominic Raab https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1074372746384166920

 

[ff1d1l]

Jezza will no doubt be right behind this...
and this. Some good signatories.

 

[Lee T]

If there’s no deal the choices should be leave with no deal or remain. My gut feeling is that there won’t be a referendum, but I get the feeling it’s more likely now than it was a month or two ago.

At the end of the day May has cocked this up big time yet many still support her, it's mind boggling, I still look at it this way, Brexit is happening, who do we want in charge of it for the next 5 years, this bunch or someone else, anyone else will be the better option for me, I want Corbyn but if the Lib Dems or greens were out in front & likely to win I would vote this way, anything but 5 years of Tory rule at this stage.

 

[Stunsworth]

At the end of the day May has cocked this up big time yet many still support her, it's mind boggling, I still look at it this way, Brexit is happening, who do we want in charge of it for the next 5 years, this bunch or someone else, anyone else will be the better option for me.

I think whoever is in charge it’s going to be crap for most of us, we’re just discussing differing degrees of crapness.

Oh for those heady days when we were being told it would be the easiest deal ever, and the EU would be pleading with us to make a deal.

 

[matthewr]

We are on a loop, it's official, this has become a cable thread.
This place is full of well educated intelligent people, how do you say Corbyn go about this, I am going to end a democratic vote & cancel Brexit, it would go against every moral fibre of his being to cancel a democratic vote, we had an opportunity in 2016, the public decided they wanted May to steer us through Brexit, here we are folks & now many here are claiming a protest against Corbyn's reticence to "cancel Brexit" when there are many May supporters around the country thinking she is doing a fine job considering the circumstances.

Oh, I dunno, maybe:

1. Point out there is three months before we leave with No Deal which would be the biggest disaster since the war.
2. That May's tactic is to delay until it's too late for anything but her deal or no deal
3. Refuse to stand idly by while May's plan goes ahead (not this means changing current policy).
4. Point out that we could ask for an extension to A50 and attempt to negotiate a better Labour Brexit.
5. When the EU refuses to give Labour a better deal than May hold a Tory Brexit vs Remain referenum and campaign for Remain.
6. Recall that we have some leverage in the above now that we know we can cancel A50.

Your argument seems to be to allow the Tories to destroy the country so that Labour can get elected. In which case you are Seumas Milne and I claim my £5.

 

[Lee T]

Jezza will no doubt be right behind this...
and this. Some good signatories.

I really do enjoy the bit which states "people talking & listening to each other"

 

[Seeker_UK]

Corbyn will never cancel a democratic vote, he could however offer another ref, but the ref cannot be the deal May negotiated, it's ludicrous, it has to be a leave deal to be fair to all parties concerned.

Labour can only offer another referendum if they're in power but if they are in power, why offer one given the leadership want to leave?

 

[Lee T]

you are Seumas Milne and I claim my £5.

I have had many claim their £5 in my name of late.
I wanted a GE before March, seems unlikely due to May dragging it out (for this very reason of course) just to be clear, not in 2022 after this government have used Brexit to cause further devastation, this I have made crystal clear, so please, your better than this.

 

[Lee T]

Labour can only offer another referendum if they're in power but if they are in power, why offer one given the leadership want to leave?

It would depend on if Corbyn or a coalition could negotiate a new deal, if they could, then put it to the public.

 

[ff1d1l]

I really do enjoy the bit which states "people talking & listening to each other"

You're open to new experiences?

 

[matthewr]

I have had many claim their £5 in my name of late.
I wanted GE before March, just to be clear, not in 2022 after this government have used Brexit to cause further devastation, this I have made crystal clear, so please, your better than this.

I am confused as you keep saying very baffling things and telling people saying waht seem to be very reasonable things how they are wrong and don't understand anything. But let's assume that's just me being dim, and you just explain what you think should happen and what Labour should do now so we end up with something other than May's deal or No Deal in 3 months time.

 

[Lee T]

You're open to new experiences?

I'm afraid this forum proves this tactic would never work, same pretty much everywhere else too, it's fairy land.

 

[matthewr]

It would depend on if Corbyn or a coalition could negotiate a new deal, if they could, then put it to the public.

They can't negotiate a better deal. And have given every indication of being *exactly* as confused as May and the ERG with nonsense talk of unicorn deals.