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Trump Part 14

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chainrule said:
not directly, no. but this jumped out at me, "if max is so wrong, then the same goes for very intelligent journslists like: thomas frank, glenn greenwald, chris hedges, john pilger, aaron mate (welcome to the list)", and by extension, you. in my view, max can be wrong (i gave one example), without the journalists that you list being wrong. i pretty sure thomas frank would not cite ron paul as some sort of moral authority, as max has done, and would strongly disagree with paul's (hence max's) political stances. you're also, in this post and others, aligning yourself with max's viewpoint (sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly), thereby tainting it (your viewpoint), imho.
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you a singling out one thing and making a meal of it. it did not mean to say that max is 100% correct or in total agreement on every detail with the people i cited. my point is that, in terms of some very basic themes, there is 'broad" agreement which goes against the dominant non-right corporate press view which many here perceive to be true. if those journalists were here, they would be having similar fights, though maybe winning a few of them ;-)
 
However, that does not make what they say correct. Also, where does this broad agreement come from? Suspect websites, contentious twitter feeds or meaningless youtube rants? I won't even ask how many support their views with evidence - a bit like your comment itself, really.
 
chainrule said:
Ron Paul is anti-war only because he’s anti-government, anti-tax. He’s anti-anything that involves money coming out of his pocket to help someone other than himself. Great man, as you said.
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I disagree with Vuk that this is entirely correct, though it is certainly in part true because his Libertarian mindset means he's against centralised power (big government) and for low taxes, and localised power (small government).

I myself believe that a country must have a good, fair taxation system so that (ideally) government can pay for a social safety net, free healthcare, good infrastructure, investment in training and higher education (free), investment in clean energy and planet-friendly practices etc.

Of course in the states money in politics and the legal bribery inherent in the system means that instead, big government is deployed to act on behalf of those with the most money (political prostitution), and that's why inequality is so high, and climbing, and why you've got the endless wars, no free healthcare, no free college tuition, low wages, mass-poverty etc.

You've also got, as have the UK a mainstream media owned by elites which in turn parrots the required narrative of said elites to the masses. A narrative designed to maintain the very lucrative (for the elites) status quo, which pushes sick wars on behalf of the home-grown elites of the military industrial complex and the foreign countries best adept at utilising the legal bribery on offer.

It's all so intertwined now that I think calling it the 'corporate military media intelligence industrial complex' is more apt. It is centralised control of the worst kind. An Orwellian nightmare!

Of course, Paul is not against all of this because he's a socialist, far from it; he despises socialism, but I do not believe based on what I've seen of him that he's so cynical/cold as to only be against war and the crooked system because it takes money from his pocket. I believe the man is against all the killing on principle, and he often says that trade is (partly) the key to both prosperity at home, and better relations around the world.

At the end of the day while he has a different view as to the ideal outcome (small government and low taxes, as opposed to corruption-free big government/socialism) he fights against this corporate military media intelligence industrial complex, and the warmongering. He tries to expose it, and few in prominent positions do that, so I see him as generally a force for good. I align with him in fighting and exposing this grotesque thing.
 
Tony L said:
It is interesting that the radicalised lefties describing others as ‘fascist’ are the same ones so often defending or spouting propaganda from the likes of Putin, Assad, Hamas, Iran etc; people, states and entities that forcefully remove any political opposition, free press etc.
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I don't think it's right to call Vuk "radicalised" which is increasingly pejorative and implying as it does notions of anti-democratic and even violent. He's much more in the tradition of the intellectual left with views that will be, broadly, familiar to anyone who has been involved in politics in our lifetime.
 
vuk said:
making trump's antics the center of all attention is probably not the way.
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This argument I think underestimates how important established norms are as part of our democracy and government and how much Trump ripping those up is deeply dangerous. This stuff really is how fascism starts and I really do think that the people who don't like the attention on Trump are mostly just pissed because people are not talking about what they consider important. To think of Trump as just a criminal problem is fundamentally to miss the point and the danger IMHO.
 
vuk said : "making trump's antics the center of all attention is probably not the way."

matthewr said:
This argument I think underestimates how important established norms are as part of our democracy and government and how much Trump ripping those up is deeply dangerous. This stuff really is how fascism starts and I really do think that the people who don't like the attention on Trump are mostly just pissed because people are not talking about what they consider important.
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i was careful to use the word "antics". by that, i meant most of his twitter posts and all the gossipy stuff. there are enough things to pound him and, at the same time build and present a platform that may convince some of the working class base he won over. for example:

- health care coverage was not expanded or made more affordable
- massive tax cut was given to the rich
- promised public-works/infrastructure is nowhere to be seen

then of course add to it stuff for the lefties and moderates (via appropriate media) like:

- dangers of climate change -- use california fires
- student debt crisis

if the democrats don't reel back in the working class, the party will either be fractured or eventually face the disruptive force of a third way.


matthewr said:
To think of Trump as just a criminal problem is fundamentally to miss the point and the danger IMHO.
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not sure i understand, but i am certainly not suggesting anything like this. to me, he is a political and cultural problem above all.

if anything, your warning should be addressed to rachel maddow and the like.
 
vuk said:
for example:

- health care coverage was not expanded or made more affordable
- massive tax cut was given to the rich
- promised public-works/infrastructure is nowhere to be seen

then of course add to it stuff for the lefties and moderates (via appropriate media) like:

- dangers of climate change -- use california fires
- student debt crisis
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But that is what the Democrats have been campaigning on. Indeed the argument they are having is should they mention Trump at all vs just a little bit and empahsising policy over banging on about Trump has been a steady theme.

Although I think they should mention him because the key demographic that can really swing the vote is women, and women are very much motivated by Trump. Greater turnout driven by women and a significant shift to democrats by suburban, college educated women are the keys in November.
 
I sense their message should be that some arm of government is needed to put a check on Trump's rampant ego to prevent damage to the country
 
Ciunas Audio said:
They'll soon have a new phrase "Fake truth"
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And the practitioners will be fakirs:

169958-004-8D68CFBE.jpg

And I am not feeling a thing, I am telling you!
url

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