Why some are stand-mount people and others floorstanders

[Tony L]

so you compared in the same room both and vastly prefer jr149?
i really doubt that most would prefer jr149 over shl5.

There is something that just irritates me to hell about the way the Harbeth bass-mid crosses over to the metal dome tweeter, it just sounds wrong to me on female voice, the reed of a saxophone etc (I seem extraordinarily sensitive to crossover/phase issues for some reason). Other than that they are a very good speaker and one I have a lot of respect for. The JR149 is obviously a smaller, quieter and more intimate speaker (you need to sit closer to it), but its crossover is truly superb. Totally seamless. Its cabinet is also superb and it remains the conventional speaker that behaves closest to a Quad ESL I’ve ever heard. It just doesn’t do box artefacts at all.

PS I am not most people and don’t care in the slightest what a majority would pick! Never have done!

 

[Elephantears]

There is something that just irritates me to hell about the way the Harbeth bass-mid crosses over to the metal dome tweeter, it just sounds wrong to me on female voice,

You are generalising from the two models that you've owned, both of which are quite unusual. The 7ES, don't forget, was Alan Shaw's first design; it's characteristics in the presence region are quite different to all other BBC designs that I've heard. The ES2 you had is barely any different. The ES3, in contrast, is very different. The difference between the SHL5 and the SHL5Plus is even greater. All of these differences are most acute in the presence region, where you are pinpointing the problems you had with 7ES (although you you did live with them for some time!). The early C7s designs had a peak at about 1.5Khz. But then Tannoys often seem to have a peak at about 3Khz, do they not? So you chose the poison you can tolerate.

Don't forget, also, that the M30.1 has a very different character, again in the presence region. Perhaps you'd prefer the recessive character? And we might say that it's the silk dome rather than the metal dome tweeter that makes it smoother, but really we can't know, because it's the only model that has an engineered presence trough. It's really quite tricky to make generalisations about Harbeths; probably a little easier with Spendor monitors, because they are still classically BBC in sound.

 

[Tony L]

What's the treble like on a big Tannoy? I always Imagine It to be lacking air and detail compared to a smaller dome tweeter used In a mini monitor.

It is surprisingly good. They behave as a horn speaker, not like a conventional tweeter dome so are pretty directional. The dual concentric design is a huge advantage too as they are obviously a point-source and suffer none of the comb or splash effects of typical speakers. You need to get the height and toe-in right if listening fairly close as I do.

Tannoys baffle me as technically they shouldn’t work at all as the bass driver is so big and has to run up to getting on for 1kHz, yet in many ways they are just wonderful. They do sound just a little sucked-out in the mid, but the crossover is very good and inoffensive. The treble has a real weight and integrity to it, cymbals and hi-hats sound ‘right’ to me and are a world away from the tizz and sizzle of some speakers, they are the right size and have the right dynanic envelope. They are also the right height (I am convinced a point-source or close to it is essential).

I have attempted to add a pair of Decca Kelly ribbon tweeters as super-tweeters and I think the idea has some potential (if for no other reason other than having more control over dispersion), but I haven’t got the crossover right yet. I’ll have another go sometime, but bottom line is a well setup pair of Monitor Golds just don’t need them as the treble is great as-is.

 

[SteveH]

Small speakers are physically incapable of doing scale

Most are. A very few aren't.

 

[Tony L]

You are generalising from the two models that you've owned, both of which are quite unusual. The 7ES, don't forget, was Alan Shaw's first design; it's characteristics in the presence region are quite different to all other BBC designs that I've heard. The ES2 you had is barely any different. The ES3, in contrast, is very different. The difference between the SHL5 and the SHL5Plus is even greater. All of these differences are most acute in the presence region, where you are pinpointing the problems you had with 7ES (although you you did live with them for some time!). The early C7s designs had a peak at about 1.5Khz. But then Tannoys often seem to have a peak at about 3Khz, do they not? So you chose the poison you can tolerate.

Don't forget, also, that the M30.1 has a very different character, again in the presence region. Perhaps you'd prefer the recessive character? And we might say that it's the silk dome rather than the metal dome tweeter that makes it smoother, but really we can't know, because it's the only model that has an engineered presence trough. It's really quite tricky to make generalisations about Harbeths; probably a little easier with Spendor monitors, because they are still classically BBC in sound.

I’m obviously just commenting on my own experience and made no reference whatsoever to models other than those I know very well (I even made sure to specify SHL5, i.e. not Plus, as I’ve never heard those)!

FWIW I’m far from convinced a flat frequency response is the issue, so a Tannoy having a peak well away from its crossover frequency may be far less of an issue to me that the odd phasey quality around the crossover that I disliked so with the Harbeths. I certainly know the issues I had with female vocal etc vanished entirely as soon as I bought another pair of Monitor Golds! I also know the 149s are entirely free of such artefacts to the point I just can’t tell where the little B110 crosses to the T27 (IIRC it is about 3kHz, which I think is the same as the Harbeth).

 

[Elephantears]

Maybe it's a Laurel/Yanny thing, because I had a serious Princess and the Pea problem with Tannoy presence/lower treble, and my issue was precisely at 3Khz. This is with HPDs rather than Golds/

 

[Chris81]

from what i read the plus is quite a bit better

Not better, only different.

 

[Tony L]

Maybe it's a Laurel/Yanny thing, because I had a serious Princess and the Pea problem with Tannoy presence/lower treble, and my issue was precisely at 3Khz. This is with HPDs rather than Golds/

Looking at some old REW plots mine don’t seem to have a spike at 3kHz. I’ve certainly not been irritated by anything around there, they are very clean with vocal sibilance etc.

 

[cooky1257]

Most are. A very few aren't.

I suppose scale is relative ;-)

 

[Elephantears]

Looking at some old REW plots mine don’t seem to have a spike at 3kHz. I’ve certainly not been irritated by anything around there, they are very clean with vocal sibilance etc.

For me, the Eatons I'm currently using were too sibilant at first. This is with a crossover that had been recapped but with identical values to the original. I sent the crossovers to Paul Coupe and he did a modification that took them down just 1.5dB at 3Khz but that did the trick. It had a big effect on reducting vocal sibilance.

 

[Ayya Khema]

I’m obviously just commenting on my own experience and made no reference whatsoever to models other than those I know very well (I even made sure to specify SHL5, i.e. not Plus, as I’ve never heard those)!

FWIW I’m far from convinced a flat frequency response is the issue, so a Tannoy having a peak well away from its crossover frequency may be far less of an issue to me that the odd phasey quality around the crossover that I disliked so with the Harbeths. I certainly know the issues I had with female vocal etc vanished entirely as soon as I bought another pair of Monitor Golds! I also know the 149s are entirely free of such artefacts to the point I just can’t tell where the little B110 crosses to the T27 (IIRC it is about 3kHz, which I think is the same as the Harbeth).

was your pair well broken in?
weird cause its especially when it comes to vocals that harbeth are so reknowned for being so natural.

 

[cooky1257]

Tannoy pepperpots have a notch filter in the crossover to deal with the peak at 2.5-3khz, Relatively simple matter(for a smart person ;-) to either broaden and/or deepen the notch to suit someone's personal taste-most Tannerds are happy with Tannoys own setting.
If I had that kind of sibilance I'd look to reinstalling the tweeter diaphragm before I messed with the crossover.
Tannoys and the Synthesis K2/M2's etc from JBL cross the large bass mid with the treble horns just where the polar dispersions match-elegant. Also in the case of Tannoy DC's the 15" isn't-it's more like 13.75" so we can see they have more leeway as per the Altec size/beaming hz charts.

 

[Tony L]

was your pair well broken in?
weird cause its especially when it comes to vocals that harbeth are so reknowned for being so natural.

It is a trait I noticed with both my Compact 7ES2 and the SHL5, and once I pointed it out others could hear it too. I find it hugely annoying as this aside I really like Harbeth speakers! If they crossed-over a bit lower to a rather better tweeter I suspect I’d love them. My Compact 7s were second hand so fully broken in and I owned them for a fairly long time (certainly a good couple of years), the SHL5 were new and I didn’t keep them long as I realised very quickly they weren’t for me and I needed to either go back to big Tannoys or maybe to Quad ESLs (I went the former route).

I’ve no idea what I’d think of the newer versions as I’ve not heard them, though I remember discussing this all with the sadly missed Markus Sauer (Stereophile reviewer and pfm mod, sadly deceased), who could hear exactly what annoyed me, and he reckoned the then new SHL5Plus was rather better in that regard.

 

[Ayya Khema]

I heard the shl5 once and I think i also did find something off about the treble
imo, the shl5plus is more well behaved, but it is a very neutral, maybe even slightly brighter then neutral speaker.I find I prefer the shl5plus without basically any toe in, pointing almost straight forward as to make the treble less pronunced.

I really like what they do and i have them on sale and really not sure if someone wants them if ill go threw the sell because I really dont know what id go for. the new tannoys seem interesting though. maybe hnunt for a vintage thiel

 

[davidsrsb]

A review of the SHL5plus:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker
The 6 kHz are is off, maybe to reduce sibilance.
Note the comments about best listening height being unusual.

 

[Natara]

Room size must come into it. Big stand mounts like the NS1000 needed wall positions. Most modern standmounts pus their bass drivers too hard in a big room

I owned a set of Guru QM10 Mk1's that were great little speakers but they did eventually blow, someone from Guru told me that they didn't like to be played loud in rooms with high ceilings!

 

[John Phillips]

There is always a trade-off though as a little driver will almost always crossover to a tweeter better than a big one.

Yes. It seems to be well understood that crossing over between two drivers gets more difficult as the disparity between sizes gets greater. In particular off-axis frequency response often suffers in the crossover region. Brands like JBL seem to deal with this in their two-way designs through fairly obvious tweeter waveguides (AKA horns to some). The reduction in response discontinuities is what I assume is meant by coherence. I have so far never been troubled by this, so correct me if I'm wrong.

So yes, you’ll get a little more bass out of an 8” (though nothing like a 12” or 15”), but you’ll likely loose some of that wonderful seamlessness and coherence of a truly high quality mini-monitor.

Coherence in a larger loudspeaker is where a three-way helps a lot. It's much easier to match directivity in the crossover regions. Waveguides are often used but may be much less obvious, especially the subtle ones in tweeters. And yes, 12 inch drivers (as I used to have years ago) and above do produce more bass. But from about 8 inches you can (depending on the designer, of course) get back a lot of the bass quality that is often lacking in smaller loudspeakers rather than getting quantity, if that's your interest (and that is mine).

But as always, loudspeaker design is a set of compromises. The stand-mount versus floorstander discussion is actually a proxy for many more key design issues. ​

 

[Elephantears]

A review of the SHL5plus:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker
The 6 kHz are is off, maybe to reduce sibilance.
Note the comments about best listening height being unusual.

6Khz is too high for sibilance, surely? The 5Plus presence region is pretty flat. Saying that, I never quite understood the 5Plus. It could be great when positioned in the near field, but I found it oppressive when it was close to side walls. I find this with Harbeths more than most of the other speakers I've tried; they really abhor wall proximity. (I should point out that my room was too small for the 5Plus, which are flat to 40Hz, precisely where my room mode lies).

 

[Tony L]

6Khz is too high for sibilance, surely? The 5Plus presence region is pretty flat. Saying that, I never quite understood the 5Plus. It could be great when positioned in the near field, but I found it oppressive when it was close to side walls. I find this with Harbeths more than most of the other speakers I've tried; they really abhor wall proximity. (I should point out that my room was too small for the 5Plus, which are flat to 40Hz, precisely where my room mode lies).

FWIW my issue is not frequency response at all, it is a slightly ‘phasey’ character where the plastic bass-mid crosses to the metal tweeter. The nearest I can describe it as is kind of like a (very mild) guitar phaser or flanger set on a fixed frequency at 3kHz, makes female sibilance kind of go “shush” rather than a clean “ssss”. Very subtle, but I’m exceptionally sensitive to crossover issues like this and it drove me nuts to the extent I just couldn’t live with the speaker. One of those things that once I’ve identified it I hear it on everything.

I’m of the mindset that frequency response actually tell you comparatively little about whether a speaker is good or not. The human ear is just not that sensitive to a db or three here and there, but we really can hear timing or phase issues.

 

[davidsrsb]

Tony, read the Stereophile link carefully and the comments. It appears the mid tweeter is not low passed much and is overlapping the top tweeter. The change from the original BBC design was that the mid tweeter went much higher.
The result is serious combing between the two which could well be the "phasing" you object to.