MDAC First Listen (part 00111001)

[Tony L]

<moderating>

Post deleted.

Again I ask that people without any stake in this matter please refrain from sniping from the sidelines. If I were to remove the thread as you seem to suggest all you would have achieved is to deny the real stake-holders here a public platform. That is not your call to make.

 

[DANOFDANGER]

Fred,

I can understand your feelings, but a few here have made it too toxic to post (the few are not even project sponsors), so the FB group where people have a public profile and are then less likely to troll is currently the main point of contact.

As you know I have worked long and hard on the MDAC2 design but have been increasingly unhappy with the sound quality of ESS DAC's - while the latest Hyperstreamer2 devices are a "Small" improvement over the ES9018 used in the original MDAC they do not bring the step change in sound quality I aim for the MDAC2.

This was confirmed this Christmas past when an old Pink Triangle customer shipped a Dacapo based design for repair (the customer begged to have his unit repaired as in his words it still outperformed everything that he has tried since). Well listning to the Dacapo was a revelation - it indeed just wiped the floor clean - a massive stepup from the ESS DAC's and I've heard many many many ESS based designs, not just my own.

The decision was taken earlier this year that the MDAC2 DD2A DAC would be reworked to be a fully discrete design - and this has been the direction we have been working on since the new year.

The DevDAC design has been "upgraded" for those who insist on ESS DAC's (Dual ES9038Q2M) - but the discrete DAC is the only version offered for the MDAC2 chassis upgrade.

The DevDAC is available Mid June (without chassis) - and we are working with a chassis vendor on a universal chassis solution for both the MDAC2 (for those without donor units) and DevDAC - I hope that the first universal chassis will be also be ready Mid June, but this is beyond my control.

WRT the MDAC2 DD2A, I just received the 4th version of the custom transformer at the heart of the design - I'll test today... the 3rd version was almost there with just a little fine tuning required, so I have high hopes that we can goto production with the latest transformer design.

The MDAC2 DD2A PCB is design to be also used in the FDAC, the FDAC will offer internal PSU and extra Modulator options (and a DSP card later).

MDAC2 DD2A will support 2 modulator / filter options (maybe more later) - these can be swapped by the user. One Modulator / Filter options follows the original DaCapo solution while the second is a more upto date solution (but not necessarily sonicaly better).

Unless we has any major issue, MDAC2 should be available in beta release around mid August - The DevDAC will be available before then for those who need a solution sooner or who doubt that we can do better then ESS...

The MDAC2 DD2A supports everything promised WRT features of the original MDAC2 designs (aside for ADC & DSP which is reserved for FDAC with its larger chassis).

I really like the direction of discrete dac. I feel its a better way. Thanks for the update.

Trouble is that the thread has started to be trolled by none project sponsors -the CONSTANT negative posting by these few has driven me to creating a FB group where Trolls are less likely as they have a public ID and I can just block them if they start to be nolonger constructive to the group.

I'd very much prefer to post here on PFM as I don't like FB, IMO its really aimed at the selfie posting generation - PFM is far more professional but these certain trolls kill it for everyone.

A reoccurring topic of conversation at Munich was "I've not posted on the PFM forum recently as its become too toxic" and I agree - its such a shame for the 99% of decent followers.

To be ohnest i dont even look at the facebook group. Its just not constructed well enough for these types of conversations. So i still check in here from time to time.

 

[BE718]

Threads die when people have nothing left to say. Unless a thread breaches the AUP there’s no reason to close it. If you wish the thread no longer existed, perhaps the best solution is for you to ignore it.

Oh dont worry Ill beoff again soon, just passing through and marvelling with utter incredulity that this is still going on and that some are still, not only tolerating it, but clearly defensive of it.

Relying on the specifics of the AUP, and ignoring there is obviously something very wrong going on here, is somewhat a blinkered or selective pov.

 

[moosemeat]

I really like the direction of discrete dac. I feel its a better way.

Likewise.

 

[Discovery]

I have the occasional dig even though I know it's wrong to do so.

Why, Harry? Why?

 

[banjoman]

Simon,

The "Universal" chassis started life as a quick solution to house the MDAC2 streamer PCB & DevDAC for the early Beta testers - its was later that I realised we should also consider the solution for the MDAC2 DD2A for those who have since sold there "Donor" MDAC's.

To avoid the detox sourcing issues, the chassis is based on a ready solution from China, with custom front / rear / base panels.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BZ3306-full-Aluminum-amplifier-case-Enclosure-BOX-preamp-Case-330-61-5-228mm/122525137869?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

The basic chassis with our custom panels fitted:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q6xg4isa6kx4kzw/front.PNG?dl=0

I am working along two sourcing paths for these chassis - the first (and for sure the most expensive) is to order the standard chassis from China and manufacture the front / rear panels here in Europe and a longer term path to have the Chinese vendor manufacture the complete design - however MOQ become an issue (and I worry about QC).

John

I am fully paid up for Level 3 (or whatever the highest level) FDAC but instead of waiting even longer for the FDAC, would rather take the proposed MDAC2 DDA. Any action needed to allow this or will you be giving us FDAC supporters the option to get the MDAC2 (I dont have a donor unit any more) in the new chassis when the timing is right?

 

[JohnW]

John

I am fully paid up for Level 3 (or whatever the highest level) FDAC but instead of waiting even longer for the FDAC, would rather take the proposed MDAC2 DDA. Any action needed to allow this or will you be giving us FDAC supporters the option to get the MDAC2 (I dont have a donor unit any more) in the new chassis when the timing is right?

Yes correct, FDAC owners will invited to join the MDAC2 as the MDAC2 PCB will be reused in the FDAC.

The Universal Chassis is the solution for the MDAC2 PCB for those without donor MDAC units.

 

[JohnW]

To be honest i dont even look at the facebook group. Its just not constructed well enough for these types of conversations. So i still check in here from time to time.

I fully agree, message threads get buried on FB... its really for teenagers to talk about nothing important...

 

[s1h1]

FDAC owners will invited to join the MDAC2 as the MDAC2 PCB will be reused in the FDAC.

Will the streamer board be reused in the FDAC too?

 

[JohnW]

Will the streamer board be reused in the FDAC too?

Most likely not as I'd like to see an internal SSD drive bay on the FDAC and maybe a option to add an internal CDRom slot loader.

 

[adamdea]

A reoccurring topic of conversation at Munich was "I've not posted on the PFM forum recently as its become too toxic" and I agree - its such a shame for the 99% of decent followers.

It is a recurrent topic around these parts that it a shame for the 100% of supporters, decent or indecent, that they have been messed around for 4 1/2 years and have nothing to show for their money.

 

[JohnW]

Hallo John

Thanks for your explanations.
The FB situation is apparently not only for me an unsatisfying one. Just come back here more often with news!
A few key words in regard to the FDAC from the past with the request for comments:
* PMD100 / 200
* Valve output stage
* REQ
* CD-DRV

Thank you

Sorry Fred, your post got buried:-

1. PMD200 will be offered with one of the modulator options.

2. There is NO active analogue output stage - essentially the DD2A discrete DAC array directly drives the output transformer for the simplest and most direct signal path (Direct Digital 2 Analog conversion) - as there is no output stage there is no position for a Tube.

3. REQ, maybe as an option (DSP) for the FDAC, but most likely we will customize a MiniDSP board. DSP IS NOT recommended for best sound quality.

4. CD-DRV, Maybe a slot loader will be offered with the Streamer option installed.

 

[s1h1]

Most likely not as I'd like to see an internal SSD drive bay on the FDAC and maybe a option to add an internal CDRom slot loader.

OK. So the streamer board is required with the DD2A (in the universal chassis), but probably not used in the FDAC. Finding a donor MDAC would be a better option for me than the universal chassis.

 

[BigDog]

Simon,


To avoid the detox sourcing issues, the chassis is based on a ready solution from China, with custom front / rear / base panels.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BZ3306-full-Aluminum-amplifier-case-Enclosure-BOX-preamp-Case-330-61-5-228mm/122525137869?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

So, I guess this means that the CNC compartmented chassis is off the table!?

Since isolation of the 3 stages was integral to the original design presumably to benefit the detoxification, how will this issue be addressed in a "build box"?

As one who was willing to overlook potential cosmetics of a Chinese CNC chassis as well as offering to install the numerous machine screws myself, all I can say is disappointed am I!

 

[JohnW]

So, I guess this means that the CNC compartmented chassis is off the table!?

Since isolation of the 3 stages was integral to the original design presumably to benefit the detoxification, how will this issue be addressed in a "build box"?

As one who was willing to overlook potential cosmetics of a Chinese CNC chassis as well as offering to install the numerous machine screws myself, all I can say is disappointed am I!

I've just had a long conversation with the Detox chassie vendor, and the milled Detox chassis is still on the cards... the production engineer is just wrapping up a project and will then start work on Detox.

 

[fred sonnen]

Sorry Fred, your post got buried:-

1. PMD200 will be offered with one of the modulator options.

2. There is NO active analogue output stage - essentially the DD2A discrete DAC array directly drives the output transformer for the simplest and most direct signal path (Direct Digital 2 Analog conversion) - as there is no output stage there is no position for a Tube.

3. REQ, maybe as an option (DSP) for the FDAC, but most likely we will customize a MiniDSP board. DSP IS NOT recommended for best sound quality.

4. CD-DRV, Maybe a slot loader will be offered with the Streamer option installed.

Hallo John

Thanks again
So the PMD100 some of us bought and send you are are no longer useful. Will you offer the PMD200 then?
No output stage no headphone use case?
One thought I forgot: The DETOX. How and in which way will this be intergratet / reuse or interact with the FDAC?
DSP vs. SQ I am with you ;-)

 

[banjoman]

Yes correct, FDAC owners will invited to join the MDAC2 as the MDAC2 PCB will be reused in the FDAC.

The Universal Chassis is the solution for the MDAC2 PCB for those without donor MDAC units.

Great.
Thanks

 

[dtd]

There is some good news in all of this - the top of the line design just became a lot cheaper.

Currently have a discrete DSD DAC myself (T+A DAC 8 DSD). I home demo'd the Chord DAVE against my current DAC with all audio up sampled to DSD 512 via HQPlayer. The DAVE was edged out unbelievably by the discrete DSD DAC, in depth plane, dynamic response and presence. Neck and neck in all other respects.

The catch? Need a beefy PC to upsample to DSD512 (at one of the faster i7 quads), HQPlayer on certain filters can add delays to startup times (i.e. cold start is 20s, switching rate families another 5-6s), and upgrade the USB output to something much better suited to audio tasks.

For the record I was willing to switch to the DAVE to get rid of the "hassle" of running HQPlayer and a PC... so wanted it to win.

It should be stated that the DAVE would win no problem against the T+A if HQPlayer upsampling to DSD 512 wasn't active.

Conclusion? Discrete DSD implementations can be a significant step up, especially with the right modulator.

 

[ti33er]

Looking forward to this...so bored with my OPPO BDP-105 Sabre DAC, clinical and bright presentation ...I’ve hardly listened to music in years now (been watching lots of movies instead)

 

[Rune]

There is some good news in all of this - the top of the line design just became a lot cheaper.
The catch? Need a beefy PC to upsample to DSD512 (at one of the faster i7 quads), HQPlayer on certain filters can add delays to startup times (i.e. cold start is 20s, switching rate families another 5-6s), and upgrade the USB output to something much better suited to audio tasks.

Was it only better when upsampling to DSD512 or would upsample to something much more sensible like DSD64 or DSD128 also sound better?

I would expect it to also be better just playing native resolution.