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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+2)?

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I don't know about the rest of Europe but I'm certain the political mess in the UK is entirely the making of a callous Tory government, full of incompetent clowns like Boris Johnson and david Davis.
 
Can the EU be defended without resorting to myths like the Greeks doing it to themselves, Merkel being generous to refugees etc.? So much on both sides sheer wish fulfilment, it’s no wonder attitudes aren’t shifting.
 
Can the EU be defended without resorting to myths like the Greeks doing it to themselves

probably not. the error on the part of the eu was that of allowing greece entry into the eurozone. that should not have happened when it did. the history of the greek economy prior to 2001 is there to be read. i agree to a large extent with what varoufakis says and writes subsequent to that, but the greek economy at that time was in severe imbalance to the rest of the eurozone
 
Isn't that referred to now as 'whataboutism'? My opinion of Mrs May and her government is probably little different to yours.
However, a bit of whataboutism of my own - your second point stands up to absolutely no scrutiny when it comes from someone who strongly supports an organisation that has created untold human misery in southern Europe, a misery that is only accentuated by the immigration crisis that it itself did much to create then utterly failed to plan for properly, or indeed plan for at all.
I'm not entirely sure that your comments don't verge on blaming the European immigration crisis on people who voted for the UK to leave the EU.
The political mess in throughout Europe at the moment is pretty much entirely the making of the EU, whether you like it or not.

You may support Brexit but you usually have better arguments than that. The immigration crisis in Europe has almost nothing to do with the EU (btw what was your real world alternative to Germany letting them in ? ) and everything to do with USA illegal wars on Iraq=>Syria and Libya. USA should be sent a $10 billion bill for it.
It is ridiculous to claim that Greek governments are not primarily to blame for the Greek debt crisis: they were not naive children in the sweet shop were they ? And the Italian Government is primarily responsible for southern Italy, in the same way the UK Govt is for long-term areas of deprivation in the UK.
 
probably not. the error on the part of the eu was that of allowing greece entry into the eurozone. that should not have happened when it did. the history of the greek economy prior to 2001 is there to be read. i agree to a large extent with what varoufakis says and writes subsequent to that, but the greek economy at that time was in severe imbalance to the rest of the eurozone

Agreed on an pure economic assessment. But that would ignore the vast debt Europe has to the cradle of its civilisation and Greece is a relatively small country. Perhaps they should have been asked not to break borrowing limits like naughty children but then you would have complained about interference.
Many if not all ex-Warsaw Pact countries were also allowed in for political reasons and some have done better than others.
 
Plus the EU is actively working in Libya. I think you will find it will be working far more effectively than the Italians or Greeks working separately themselves. https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage_en/19163/EU-Libya relations

It is actually reducing migrants, albeit at a human cost http://www.dw.com/en/un-eu-cooperat...-unimaginable-horrors-for-migrants/a-41380660

But I suppose the reduction will most please Brexitiers. Doubt they'll bother to read up about it, though.
 
Plus the EU is actively working in Libya. I think you will find it will be working far more effectively than the Italians or Greeks working separately themselves. https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage_en/19163/EU-Libya relations

It is actually reducing migrants, albeit at a human cost http://www.dw.com/en/un-eu-cooperat...-unimaginable-horrors-for-migrants/a-41380660

But I suppose the reduction will most please Brexitiers. Doubt they'll bother to read up about it, though.
Both articles paint a horrific picture of EU priorities.
 
Both articles paint a horrific picture of EU priorities.

It's tricky to strike a balance when you've got the likes of Poland and Hungary and a resurgent far-right in Italy and Greece. And even liberal Scandinavia isn't reacting well.

I'd look to blame human nature rather than the EU. Just look at what European nations got up to in Africa before the EU.

At least EU laws and regulations mean that EU countries have handled over two million asylum claims in the last few years.

Whereas Brexitiers like Katie Hopkins favoured gunboats.
 
Killing them indeed is the end to the problem. Shipping nuclear and other toxic waste to help their wasteprocessing economy, create local jobs while killing them, was the dutch method :)
 
You may support Brexit but you usually have better arguments than that. The immigration crisis in Europe has almost nothing to do with the EU (btw what was your real world alternative to Germany letting them in ? ) and everything to do with USA illegal wars on Iraq=>Syria and Libya. USA should be sent a $10 billion bill for it.

It wasn't a matter of Germany merely 'letting them in', it was a matter of Merkel (unilaterally) saying come, we will take all of you. We can do it. Mainly, I understand, as a knee jerk reaction to being made to feel guilty on a TV programme.

'We can do it.' I'm sorry, but I wonder how many thousands of people those words drowned in the Mediterranean.

It is ridiculous to claim that Greek governments are not primarily to blame for the Greek debt crisis....and the Italian Government is primarily responsible for southern Italy....

Setting aside whether or not this is entirely accurate, I didn't.

you do have to wonder why Osbourne didn't join the family business :(

His name is George, not Sharon. Why does everyone on pfm insist on calling him Osbourne?

It's tricky to strike a balance when you've got the likes of Poland and Hungary and a resurgent far-right in Italy and Greece. And even liberal Scandinavia isn't reacting well.

Who even tried to strike a balance? That would have required planning, and there wasn't any. The right is resurgent to at least some degree because the people of those countries have had immigrants foisted on them by the EU and Germany, not despite it.

I'd look to blame human nature rather than the EU. Just look at what European nations got up to in Africa before the EU.

Please don't start playing the guilt card. It can never end well, and is entirely self-destructive. You and I are not our great-great-great-great (...) grandparents.

At least EU laws and regulations mean that EU countries have handled over two million asylum claims in the last few years.

Very noble, but at what cost to the integrity of the EU which you so admire? They forgot to ask the people (again). Look at it now. Fences on the external borders, frontiers on the internal ones, the far right resurgent. Great work, well thought through.

Whereas Brexitiers like Katie Hopkins favoured gunboats.

Who?
 
Well EU took its time, finally Guardian can report about the fine: The EU executive has said the UK owes €2.7bn (£2.4bn) to Brussels for alleged failure to tackle customs fraud, as it launched legal action against the government.

This isn't directly Brexit related, UK knew it was coming, everybody knew. UK isn't very good with borders.
 
That customs fraud accusation is a good example of why UK needs to get out. It's just as easy to fudge the paperwork importing into Germany as it is UK. I import to both countries. Customs here also just stamp documentation without really giving a shit or checking it properly. I could put that the box had 50 young prostitutes in it at a purchase price of 5 shillings and they probably would not notice. The difference is Germany likes to put extra steps of garbage in the import process that have nothing to do with fraud. Just rubbish, inefficient, old-school methods, like making me pay for the 50 euro processing fee and the VAT charge in different rooms of the building. And they don't have a card reader in one of them, so it's cash only.

Yet the EU seems to conclude that UK is the only dodgy one. It's really not true. The French get their stuff shipped into Germany, pick it up and drive it back to France. Why?

I'd love to know what goes on in Spain, Italy and Greece. Are they examples of good import process and tax collection then?

Big thumbs down.
 
Really the government should set up companies in each EU country and import some stuff with undervalued invoices. That should put an end to that load of crap.
 
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