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Is Naim snake oil?

Jonboi said:
As someone who's owned Naim, I think this is quite fair and likely true for some people. At the time I bought my Naim kit, the main source of information about HiFi generally, and Naim in particular was magazines.

I sought it out, auditioned it, liked it, and whilst very expensive, thought it very good and ultimately worth the price of admission.

A decade and a bit later, when I moved into AV and with it some 9000ES series Sony kit, I was pretty shocked and dismayed to find that on blind, AB level matched (measured) comparisons, the sonic differences between the Sony and Naim amplification were very small indeed. I won't say they sounded exactly the same, but they were far more alike than dissimilar.

On very well known, favourite tracks one could perceive those small differences - a cymbal crash here, a snare drum strike there, the acoustic space on cathedral organ, the timbral colour of the instrument etc. But if playing less than familiar music, and again blind and level matched, it was much harder to pick differences - again, not exactly the same sonic 'signature' but more alike than dissimilar.

At the end of the day, the conclusion was that the Sony amp had noticeably higher resolution, and much better transient response/dynamics - or translated to Naimee terms, quicksilver v's plodding PRaT - and inevitably a much more insightful and musical listen than the Naim on most musical genres.

The shock and dismay came about due mainly the 'badge', reputation and of course the considerable difference in price.

In the ensuing years, I've done a lot of AB testing at home; amps, CD/DVD players, racks, cables etc, and where possible always measure as close as I can to get the same volume level, and do it blind where I can with the help of a friend.

I have little doubt that under blind ABX conditions, as the Richard Clark amplifier challenge proved, most people would struggle to pick meaningful differences between any competent amplifier, not driven into distortion and operating with a suitable load, let alone source components and cables, racks etc.

The power of expectation and confirmation bias is immense, and the psychology of marketing no doubt plays a part in this.

Our hearing is also not linear, but logarithmic, so even subtle differences in volume can result in perceived differences in sound attributed to an component being compared in a shop setting, when in reality all we are hearing is the difference in perceived loudness.

So there were some lessons learned, and whilst I enjoyed my time with Naim, it's idiosyncratic nature with all the warming up rituals etc counted against it, and ultimately it was sold off as it did not match the musical results of the Sony and was stereo only, whereas I had moved into a M/C AV system.

Was the Naim sonically worth what I paid for it? Yes, I think it was - at least at first, and given the resources and knowledge I had at the time, and there was no doubt it was a very enjoyable and satisfying listen on the whole.

But technology and with it the performance envelope moves on, - the Sony was and is effectively a Tact Millennium in design and modus operandi, - which made Naims products look quite dated in circuit design terms, and ones knowledge about HiFi and proper controlled testing methodologies grows with experience.

As such, another decade and a bit on when I found myself in the same position again, seeking a new complete system, I found what I wanted in a fully active (at last!) M/C AV setup from B&O, which thus far has proved to be the best performing and most satisfying HiFi system to live with that I've had the pleasure of owning.

Cheers
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The mention of Sony kit prompts me to a short story.
The only piece of Naim kit I have ever owned was one of their CD 3.5 players.
I liked it.
As it was getting a little ‘long in the tooth’, I decided to sell it.
Bought a CDX, but couldn’t quite get on with it.

I am not normally for taking chances, but I did take a chance on a Sony XA777ES
advertised on an Audio Forum.
As a friend loved my CDX, I had the money for the Sony.

At first the Sony didn’t impress, but grew on me over a week or so.

Conclusion, of sorts:
Some will love the Naim approach, others will choose differently.
The Sony suits my musical tastes, so it’s staying.
 
Just ducking back in briefly to say, in general terms, that it is a shame that good kit can attract a history of negativity, but my memory (NOT Naim this time) of certain dealer antics is too recent to be forgiven...the demo where, after your 'other' choice has been on (in stony silence) the 'X' brand is switched in, the volume tweaked up, and demo boy starts to click his fingers, tap his feet and smile..."listen to the way that bass line has tightened up..."
I thought all that had died out in the 90's, but this was last year, at a well known HiFi show! Doesn't help AT ALL.
 
Since my early teenage years I've always wanted some naim kit, but it's always been out of my reach (financially). The new stuff looks fantastic and the model names have always been captivating, a bit like an 'interositer'. When I win the lottery, I'm gonna get a whole rack of Nap500Drs just for their presence in my hifi room, so I can admire them while listening to Jean Michel Jarre.
 
Is Naim really that controversial? I suspect there are more current/ex users here than most brands so the threads generate more opinion as more people have opinion, but I doubt the +/- ratio is much different to that from any other brand. I’ve read some negatives as well as positives about many other popular brands (Musical Fidelity, Quad, Audio Research, Krell, McIntosh etc etc). With any high profile product there will always be a range of opinion. My view on reading this thread is the majority is positive so I don’t really understand the negativity by a minority towards the actual concept of discussion or platform. It is certainly far beyond absurd to accuse pfm as being negative; the site was born out of the Naim second hand market and I regard a lot of Naim kit as classic audio, which is my highest accolade!
 
Contraversial? Well that’s as maybe, but the real issue is the sheer level of vitriol directed the way of the company and, of course, to anyone “foolish” enough to own any of the “N Word”. And it’s always from the Usual Suspects.

It is, of course, similar to a mains/“digital”/interconnect/speaker cable thread :D.
 
I think JV period was less controversial vs capital investors period

The world and audio has become more complex too
 
suzywong said:
Contraversal? Well that’s as maybe, but the real issue is the sheer level of vitriol directed the way of the company and, of course, to anyone “foolish” enough to own any of the “N Word”. And it’s always from the Usual Suspects.

It is, of course, similar to a mains/“digital”/interconnect/speaker cable thread :D.
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I think you're right, there will be similarities between those threads, but to me, that statement is REALLY unhelpful to Naim owners, since there is a large body of aksheral science which is directed to providing evidence about cables and the reason that the cost, and the result have no resemblance to anything to do with HiFi. People bash expensive foo and foo cables for a good, evidenced reason, so connecting that approach to NAIM is not too helpful to the cause.
 
PerF said:
I think JV period was less controversial vs capital investors period

The world and audio has become more complex too
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Probably right on both counts. I only have an opinion on the JV stuff, and I like it!
 
Get involved in any hobby where there is any scope for opinion and debate and you have more than ample opportunity for sellers of snake oil. As for Naim - why pick on them? Just to take 2 examples -

If the common assumption that Linn black oil is black because it contains graphite (it certainly looks like graphite and drops out of suspension in the oil easily enough, and would be easily identified at modest magnification), that is 100% snake oil, pardon the pun. Graphite only has any lubricity when it is hydrated - very unlikely if dispersed in oil.
Maybe it isn't graphite??? In which case, what is the black magic lubricating ingredient?

I'll not trawl the threads, but there has been a so-called LP12 speed controller plugged that is no such thing - it is a rev' counter/timer - it times each rev'. That is laughable in terms of speed control, not least when myriad industrial rotary speed control systems exist that measure speed hundreds or thousands of time each rev'.
 
The reality is most early pfm folk jumped here from the Naim forum so for many years it was the alternative Naim forum. However the ethos was still that Naim was 'the best' it was just you could challenge the idea that a 140 was automatically better than a 110, tweak it and use other power supplies etc. All this **** is because pfm has become a much broader church so if your very identity is tied to owning 'the best' it is going to be a bit of a pisser to find it really is just another brand and not much to write home about:)
 
Haters gonna hate!

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My first entry point into Naim back in about 1987; Xerxes, Marantz portable cassette deck, QED tuner, 62, 140, Gale 301 and surprisingly few records!
 
Thirteen pages of snake oil ! Enough, surely, to deep-fry a hell of a lot of snakes, or at least, lubricate them. Some 45 or so years after Naim's inception, we still have thread titles like this; quite amazing ! Does anyone know how the company's moniker came to be? I suspect an acronym, but can't work it out. Whatever, it was inspired thought or just lucky, as it lends itself to just so many aspects of product differentiation and clever marketing.
 
Vinny said:
Get involved in any hobby where there is any scope for opinion and debate and you have more than ample opportunity for sellers of snake oil. As for Naim - why pick on them? Just to take 2 examples -

If the common assumption that Linn black oil is black because it contains graphite (it certainly looks like graphite and drops out of suspension in the oil easily enough, and would be easily identified at modest magnification), that is 100% snake oil, pardon the pun. Graphite only has any lubricity when it is hydrated - very unlikely if dispersed in oil.
Maybe it isn't graphite??? In which case, what is the black magic lubricating ingredient?

I'll not trawl the threads, but there has been a so-called LP12 speed controller plugged that is no such thing - it is a rev' counter/timer - it times each rev'. That is laughable in terms of speed control, not least when myriad industrial rotary speed control systems exist that measure speed hundreds or thousands of time each rev'.
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I am afraid this is rubbish. Graphite is a natural lubricator. If you held a native lump in your hand it would appear silvery, heavy. cold and greasy. That latter is because the hexagonal layered structures (lattice) easily slide over each other. Although a true non-metal graphite has metallic properties and as well as those just mentioned also conducts electricity as well as heat. It was used as a lubricant in early space vehicles as unlike oil and grease it doesn't evaporate in a vacuum. Today graphite as well as lots of other stuff is still used as a lubricant for space vehicles but usually intercalated.

The silvery black stuff could also be Molybdenum disulphide another lubricant. It used to be added to motor oil but I'm out of date and can't be bothered to search the web to see if its still used. Molyslip comes to mind and I think I saw some recently in Halfords.

Cheers,

DV
 
MVV said:
The reality is most early pfm folk jumped here from the Naim forum so for many years it was the alternative Naim forum. However the ethos was still that Naim was 'the best' it was just you could challenge the idea that a 140 was automatically better than a 110, tweak it and use other power supplies etc. All this **** is because pfm has become a much broader church so if your very identity is tied to owning 'the best' it is going to be a bit of a pisser to find it really is just another brand and not much to write home about:)
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And yet it brings musical pleasure to so many, each to their own.

I’ve moved on to Jap amps but I won’t decry those who like NAIM.
 
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Arkless Electronics said:
Love the Xerxes! You're welcome to the Naim...:p
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The Xerxes was a right PITA. I bought it because it could play 45s without pulling it to bits, but in reality it was a horrible piece of design. The PSU blew up and the top-plate had sagged within a couple of years of purchase and whilst I got the former fixed under warranty Roksan simply refused to acknowledge any issue with the latter. As such they remain one of two companies (I won’t name the other) who I will have nothing to do with. My first and last Roksan product! The Naim on the other hand performed flawlessly for around a decade (HiCap and Kan IIs added a few months after the picture) until I eventually upgraded to a second hand 32.5, 135s and Isobariks.

I wish I knew then what I know now about turntables. I could have bought a 301, 124 or even an EMT for peanuts back then, yet for some reason we were led to believe cheap band-sawn MDF the likes of which one could find at Ikea was the answer!
 
Tony L said:
The Xerxes was a right PITA. I bought it because it could play 45s without pulling it to bits, but in reality it was a horrible piece of design. The PSU blew up and the top-plate had sagged within a couple of years of purchase and whilst I got the former fixed under warranty Roksan simply refused to acknowledge any issue with the latter. As such they remain one of two companies (I won’t name the other) who I will have nothing to do with. My first and last Roksan product! The Naim on the other hand performed flawlessly for around a decade (HiCap and Kan IIs added a few months after the picture) until I eventually upgraded to a second hand 32.5, 135s and Isobariks.

I wish I knew then what I know now about turntables. I could have bought a 301, 124 or even an EMT for peanuts back then, yet for some reason we were led to believe cheap band-sawn MDF the likes of which one could find at Ikea was the answer!
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Ha, ha, I was thinking about that too. Sold my dads GL99/SME arm for peanuts. I'd have it back in a shot. Shamefully the Ditton 44s went to the tip!
 
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