Barrymagrec
pfm Member
I think turntable "servicing" often means a few drops of 3 in 1 in what looks like the appropriate places.
Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade
- Thread starter Tony L
- Start date
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- Tags
- idler drive sme 3009 td-124 thorens
I think turntable "servicing" often means a few drops of 3 in 1 in what looks like the appropriate places.
audiogoose
pfm Member
Tony:
Interested to know how the suspension springs have worked out in your 124.
Thinking I might give them a try, since the cost is not all that great.
Thanks,
Jerry
Interested to know how the suspension springs have worked out in your 124.
Thinking I might give them a try, since the cost is not all that great.
Thanks,
Jerry
Shuggie
Trade: Ammonite Audio
I have the Hanze springs in my TD-124 and they do exactly what is claimed for them.
Tony L
Administrator
I think the springs work as advertised. That particular aspect of motor rumble wasn't an obvious issue on my deck as I was using fresh Schopper grommets not stale or hardened originals, plus I still very have a slight hum issue from the Dl-103 or preamp earthing so I can't really articulate an obvious sonic improvement at this stage. They are however accurately made, easy enough to fit and certainly allow the motor to 'float' more. My only concern would be in shipping a deck with them fitted, as they are so much more compliant and rely on gravity holding them in place I suspect the motor may clunk around a lot in transit. I'd personally replace the rubber mounts if for whatever reason I needed to send a 124 through the mail.
Tony L
Administrator
The ones that loop across the top of the chassis to the switch/strobe etc? No, not that I've ever seen. I have completely dissassembled and rebuilt this deck, in fact it is now made from several donors to get things as good as is possible, but nothing is missed out! I've just checked Google and all late MkIIs are like that. Earlier MkIIs and all MkIs have what looks like a standard double-insulated three-core mains lead in place of the two black figure of eight leads.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
Yes, I like them too.
audiogoose
pfm Member
Have ordered a set today.
Looking forward to trying them out.
Looking forward to trying them out.
Tony L
Administrator
It's been a strange couple of weeks since my last update... my TD-124 now looks like this under it's hat:
Yes, that is an original green Thorens cast iron platter! What happened is I became increasingly aware/irritated by a deep fairly quiet once per revolution "....fluppp..." sound that was audible on solo piano, string quartets etc, and tracked it down to an area of rough paint finish on the inside rim of my black Swissonor platter. Exactly the area the idler tracks. I'd not really noticed it with the La Scalas as they have a light and airy tonal balance, the Tannoys however have some real heft at the bottom so showed it up. I contacted Swissonor, who were very helpful indeed and suggested just sanding the area down with some wet and dry. Perfectly reasonable I guess, but me being me (i.e. picky almost to the point of OCD) I wasn't happy to go this route with such an expensive item, plus I have a good sense of pitch and was worried I'd end up knocking the thing off circle a bit. As such I've accepted a full refund and sent it back. Very generous indeed IMO given I had owned the thing for four years or so.
The thing that worried me most is the Swissonor platter simply kills the alloy one sound wise, even though the alloy one didn't have the rumble issue. It really is a lot better, the extent surprised me when I A/B tested them when boxing the Swissonor up. It would have been a great shame to downgrade the deck to that extent. I don't know where my new green iron platter, from the south of France no less, fits in the grand scheme of things compared to the Swissonor, but it is clearly a lot better than the alloy one, so I'm happy again. I also think I've got the pitch the most true I've had it on this deck so far, piano is sounding very good assuming a nice concentrically cut record.
The green iron platter, being a ferrous iron, obviously has a degree of magnetic attraction, but it is controllable. I read elsewhere that it is officially 0.5g at record playing height with a DL-103 (which I am currently using) and I've measured this and agree. Just moving the SME's balance weight back half a gram gives the right reading at record height. I understand the figure of 0.7g is correct for an SPU, but I haven't got one of those... yet! It is not an issue at all with moving magnets, but I suspect Deccas may be a no-go.
PS There will be more to write about belts. A lot more. I am now convinced my TD-124 is working absolutely perfectly, but I haven't yet found a belt that is immune to shedding a little black gunge after a day or two, and even the slightest amount and the transmission starts making a bit of noise. I am convinced this is down to all available belts being too tight for the 50Hz pulley, i.e. IMO there should be two belts for a TD-124, one for the 50Hz pulley and one for the 60Hz, a belt that "does both" is just too compromised. I'll get there in the end. At least I am now certain it is not the motor or stepped pulley as simply cleaning the belt and the surfaces it rides on restores silent running. In many ways it is a non-issue as this transmission noise does not seem to exit as rumble, I can't hear it on a silent groove record. I'd just like to sort it, so I'm still belt shopping...
Yes, that is an original green Thorens cast iron platter! What happened is I became increasingly aware/irritated by a deep fairly quiet once per revolution "....fluppp..." sound that was audible on solo piano, string quartets etc, and tracked it down to an area of rough paint finish on the inside rim of my black Swissonor platter. Exactly the area the idler tracks. I'd not really noticed it with the La Scalas as they have a light and airy tonal balance, the Tannoys however have some real heft at the bottom so showed it up. I contacted Swissonor, who were very helpful indeed and suggested just sanding the area down with some wet and dry. Perfectly reasonable I guess, but me being me (i.e. picky almost to the point of OCD) I wasn't happy to go this route with such an expensive item, plus I have a good sense of pitch and was worried I'd end up knocking the thing off circle a bit. As such I've accepted a full refund and sent it back. Very generous indeed IMO given I had owned the thing for four years or so.
The thing that worried me most is the Swissonor platter simply kills the alloy one sound wise, even though the alloy one didn't have the rumble issue. It really is a lot better, the extent surprised me when I A/B tested them when boxing the Swissonor up. It would have been a great shame to downgrade the deck to that extent. I don't know where my new green iron platter, from the south of France no less, fits in the grand scheme of things compared to the Swissonor, but it is clearly a lot better than the alloy one, so I'm happy again. I also think I've got the pitch the most true I've had it on this deck so far, piano is sounding very good assuming a nice concentrically cut record.
The green iron platter, being a ferrous iron, obviously has a degree of magnetic attraction, but it is controllable. I read elsewhere that it is officially 0.5g at record playing height with a DL-103 (which I am currently using) and I've measured this and agree. Just moving the SME's balance weight back half a gram gives the right reading at record height. I understand the figure of 0.7g is correct for an SPU, but I haven't got one of those... yet! It is not an issue at all with moving magnets, but I suspect Deccas may be a no-go.
PS There will be more to write about belts. A lot more. I am now convinced my TD-124 is working absolutely perfectly, but I haven't yet found a belt that is immune to shedding a little black gunge after a day or two, and even the slightest amount and the transmission starts making a bit of noise. I am convinced this is down to all available belts being too tight for the 50Hz pulley, i.e. IMO there should be two belts for a TD-124, one for the 50Hz pulley and one for the 60Hz, a belt that "does both" is just too compromised. I'll get there in the end. At least I am now certain it is not the motor or stepped pulley as simply cleaning the belt and the surfaces it rides on restores silent running. In many ways it is a non-issue as this transmission noise does not seem to exit as rumble, I can't hear it on a silent groove record. I'd just like to sort it, so I'm still belt shopping...
awl
pfm Member
I always felt the TD124 benefited from a heavier platter (more moment of inertia) and so for different reasons you and I have ended up with the same combination Tony, i.e. a 124 mkII with cast iron platter. I don't know if it was ever available in that specification from Thorens.
I think another factor in keeping the cast iron platter when I sold the (mkI) 124 was that it's simply one of the most beautiful things and the alloy platter of the mkII never impressed me in the same way.
It's good to hear that Swissonor's customer service is good, but with the price of their products I'd say you've every reason to feel a bit miffed about that platter...
I think another factor in keeping the cast iron platter when I sold the (mkI) 124 was that it's simply one of the most beautiful things and the alloy platter of the mkII never impressed me in the same way.
It's good to hear that Swissonor's customer service is good, but with the price of their products I'd say you've every reason to feel a bit miffed about that platter...
Tony L
Administrator
According to Joachim Bung's excellent Swiss Precision book about the TD-124 the alloy platter was never actually supplied as standard and was always an (apparently very popular) option the purchaser could specify. As such a MkII with an iron platter is a perfectly legitimate thing, as is a MkI with an alloy platter. By saying that I have a feeling the vast majority if not all MkIIs imported into the USA had the alloy platter, maybe to reduce shipping weight. I agree with you that the iron platter is a beautiful object, far more so than the alloy one. I'm surprised the alloy one isn't better, they could have fitted some more mass in there if they'd tried, it is definitely a smaller and thinner thing. I'll keep both, though I can't see myself ever refitting the alloy one.
Sadly not, I get the belt shed without the platter fitted at all. I have a feeling it is just down to stretch, arc and speed. I've ordered another two from Turntable Basics, one 13.6, and another hopefully flatter 13.9, both longer than the Schopper. Will report once they turn up. I'm pretty convinced the loosest one that doesn't slip is what's wanted.
PS I'm sure I've mentioned it before but there is a huge and very interesting TD-124 thread over on DIYAudio here that has run in parallel with this one and seems to draw very similar conclusions on most things, especially with regards to the quality of modern belts. The findings being that a tired looking original from the 60s is often the quietest by far. Annoyingly I haven't got one!
Robert
Tapehead
How does this work with records of differing thickness, and of course warps?
Tony L
Administrator
The higher it rides the lighter it will get. With the 103 it seems of no issue whatsoever, it's a heavy tracking cart (2.5g) so we are only talking a magnetic attraction of a fifth of tracking weight, and even at the top of a warp that likely won't reduce to nothing. I guess it may be fluctuating from 2.5g to 2.2 at the top of a warp, in fact that may actually help it ride the 'up' side even if it's less good on the 'down'. I suspect things would get a lot more complex with a more modern cart with high strength neodymium magnets and low tracking weight, but with period correct old clunkers like the 103 and even heavier tracking SPU it is not a worry at all.
I've just spent the evening listening to it and it is sounding really good. I'd go as far as saying the best I've ever heard a 103 sound. I upped the effective mass a bit on the SME last week by chucking another SME 4.3g headshell weight in there so it's now got two plus a little bit of Blu-Tac at the front to just damp it a bit. I've read several places now that DL-103s love SME 3012s and mass-loaded early 3009s and don't like more modern "rigid" arms at all. I'm now pretty convinced this is right. Thorsten Loesch (TNT and elsewhere) actually recommends using a couple of plastic washers between headshell and DL-103 if you really must use it in a modern Rega/SME V type arm. In the 3009 and via the Verdier pre, which seems to love the 103, there is none of that hardness or edge I've heard from these carts in the past, e.g. in my old (and seriously good) LP12/Zeta. Looking at the JC Verdier website pretty much every picture of their turntables has a 103 or SPU loaded up so I suspect there is something going on here!
PS I will at some point start a thread on effective mass/compliance as I'd like to really understand how to calculate it. I realise it is way more complex than simply adding on the mass I've added to the 3009 headshell to the 12.5 specified mass, it involves some proper fancy maths. I'm also confused as I'd expect two figures from SME depending on whether the additional rider weight is used (I'm using it). I'm sure my 3009 is now really high mass, but I'm not sure exactly how high, nor what the DL-103 technically wants. I've seen several folk suggest over 35g, which seems very high to me. The weights I've added bring the cart up to about the weight of say a Zu 103 I guess, so I suspect I'm in the right general ballpark.
anderson4209
pfm Member
i wish someone could help with my 124 the steel belt has come off the speed change, and i just cant get it to work anymore
Dom at Northwest Analogue fixed mine when same thing occurred.
Tony L
Administrator
This is one of the most fragile and easily damaged parts of a 124 and spares are rare and *very* expensive. Has yours actually broken?
I've only ever removed mine once when transplanting the whole thing from one chassis to another (see much earlier in the thread). I managed to do so by very slowly and gently removing the whole assembly as one piece, i.e. speed change lever, metal belt and idler cam-thingy keeping everything absolutely parallel. Apparently the correct way to replace the belt is to set the speed lever to 78, undo the two screws in the belt and the one on the speed lever and refit. The process is detailed in the TD-124 Service Manual available in .pdf format here.
Tony L
Administrator
Time for another quick update: my new belts came from Turntable Basics. This time they sent me a nice FM 13.9, the first one I bought years ago had an obvious twist in it which meant it 'flapped' a bit, so I never really formed an opinion on it. I've fitted the new one on and it is running very quietly indeed at present. It's only been on for a couple of days so I don't know if noise will creep back with belt shed but it's very good at the moment. I have a theory that most of the trouble with the TD-124 is that modern belts are just stupidly tight due to people trying to sell the same belt for both 50 and 60Hz pulleys when the lengths are clearly a lot different (50Hz pulley is a lot bigger). As such if a belt is stretched/strained I suspect it will have a higher tendency both to shed rubber and for that waste rubber to make noise due to the high tension. A tight belt will also have an impact on the motor suspension and even the motor and step-pulley bushings. The FM13.9 belt is very low tension so it may well be able to answer my question. I can see no logic in using anything tighter than is needed to start the deck without slipping. I actually want to see how long/low tension I can go here, i.e. if the 13.9 is still fine after a month or two I'll try a 14!
I also really went to town polishing the running surfaces of the motor pulley and step pulley as many have reported benefits in doing so. I'd previously just got them clean and shiny. This time I've properly polished them! I applied some electrical heatshrink to the long bearing spindle of the step pulley to protect its surface from marking (I practiced on the least good of my three first, it works perfectly), then mounted it in a electric drill chuck and spun it gently against some Brasso wadding for quite a while until I felt it was really nice and smooth. I did the same thing with the motor pulley, its internal diameter looks to be an imperial 2BF the same as the bolts that mount my Tannoys into their Lockwood cabs. I had a few bolts spare and luckily the type I had have a non-threaded area under the cap, so perfect for mounting the pulley using it's own machine screws, I then mounted the bolt into the drill and repeated the process used for the step pulley. Result is wonderfully clean and smooth surfaces for the belt to run on. I hope it translates to less belt shedding.
I'm really loving this deck at the moment, it is sounding very good indeed. Coherent and together with a surprising punch and kick to it. It just makes me want to play whole albums, and that is always a good sign. It is fun! The last time I had it in the system I was using a lightbulb as a voltage dropper and I'm pretty sure now that was a mistake, I'm certain it took some drive and slam even if it allowed for at the time quieter running (i.e. less belt noise). The new green iron platter really is great, I strongly advise anyone using the alloy one to get hold of one - a big upgrade for not much money. It is also pretty much an interference fit on the spindle so a heck of a lot easier to centre than the alloy one.
anderson4209
pfm Member
hi tony, i dare not touch it, using a technics sl110 at the moment, sounds good,