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MDAC First Listen (part 00101000)

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Good evening all

I'm very new to Pink Fish but have been following this thread with a lot of interest for some time. But, I admit I'm confused about a few things which I hope you can clarify for a newby.

I've recently bought an MDAC and am absolutely thrilled with it. I've no intention of upgrading it any time soon (although I have updated the firmware - I couldn't bear the undimmed front panel). But, can you tell me in very simple terms what the different development options referred to throughout this thread are e.g. Fusion, Toy, MDAC 2 etc?

At some point I think I would be interested in swapping out the PCB for an improved version whilst keeping the casing etc. Is this the MDAC 2? If so, will I be able to do it in the future, or is this a time limited thing to which I have to subscribe now? If it's the latter, what is the financial outlay?

Thanks all and apologies for asking the basic questions.

Regards

Rob
 
Noah's Dove said:
Good evening all

I'm very new to Pink Fish but have been following this thread with a lot of interest for some time. But, I admit I'm confused about a few things which I hope you can clarify for a newby.

I've recently bought an MDAC and am absolutely thrilled with it. I've no intention of upgrading it any time soon (although I have updated the firmware - I couldn't bear the undimmed front panel). But, can you tell me in very simple terms what the different development options referred to throughout this thread are e.g. Fusion, Toy, MDAC 2 etc?

At some point I think I would be interested in swapping out the PCB for an improved version whilst keeping the casing etc. Is this the MDAC 2? If so, will I be able to do it in the future, or is this a time limited thing to which I have to subscribe now? If it's the latter, what is the financial outlay?

Thanks all and apologies for asking the basic questions.

Regards

Rob
Click to expand...

Noah,

Be happy with what you have!

What we're battling about since close to four years is a completely new DAC (it seems), may be christened the Fusion DAC and to be marketed by miniDSP.

Hold your horses, wait and see what will turn up in the end of the rainbow ...
 
Hey Rob,

-MDAC is the original
-Fusion and Toy versions are levels of modification performed by John to the original MDAC (resistors and caps)
-MDAC2 was created as a way to achieve SQ goals to satisfy the demand for more of what the MDAC could provide, hence this project.

Recent developments have resulted in a need to choose one option for the whole product run. Either the sound quality is king with full size case or stick with the half width original case and reduce SQ potential.

To join, you may be too late, but the idea is a crowd funded pursuit of the development with the benefit of a heavily discounted end product for those helping to fund the initiative.

There aren't any options to upgrade the original MDAC any more as it was very time consuming and wasn't financially viable for John. This was his alternative solution to increase the number of people that can enjoy a reference standard DAC in order to meet his quality goals and there is potential to further the business and lead into more work elsewhere.

You would need to get on the project or wait for the final product which will cost a lot. It appears as though full width chassis is preferred by the majority but it's John's decision to a) let you on the project (£400 + further costs) and b) determine chassis size commitment.

If he goes with full width then it replaces your current DAC and makes it available for use elsewhere (or you can sell it) and if he goes standard size then you replace the internals of your current DAC. The outcome is TBD but expected very soon as he is in China for sake of these negotiations. It's all very exciting, hence the activity.

Hope that helps!

Ps. Lars ain't wrong. If you want on the project you should be patient and not emotionally attached to the money/end product etc. It is possible that what John creates turns out to be the same as every other competent DAC. Worst case it could be even worse. Not sure how people would cope with that. Highly unlikely in my view, the MDAC is great and John gives a lot of confidence but just as with gambling, don't pitch dosh you can't afford to lose for the sake of a hobby unless you're genuinely behind the spirit of the initiative.
 
LarsS said:
Got all the others (Like ...), enlighten me, don't get it.
Click to expand...

Sorry - too personal perhaps. I used to work in the City (of London) in Banking/Investment: there were some very intelligent people indeed, and more buffoons living off the old-boy network than you would believe possible.
 
Sibbers said:
Hey Rob,

-MDAC is the original
-Fusion and Toy versions are levels of modification performed by John to the original MDAC (resistors and caps)
-MDAC2 was created as a way to achieve SQ goals to satisfy the demand for more of what the MDAC could provide, hence this project.

Recent developments have resulted in a need to choose one option for the whole product run. Either the sound quality is king with full size case or stick with the half width original case and reduce SQ potential.

To join, you may be too late, but the idea is a crowd funded pursuit of the development with the benefit of a heavily discounted end product for those helping to fund the initiative.

There aren't any options to upgrade the original MDAC any more as it was very time consuming and wasn't financially viable for John. This was his alternative solution to increase the number of people that can enjoy a reference standard DAC in order to meet his quality goals and there is potential to further the business and lead into more work elsewhere.

You would need to get on the project or wait for the final product which will cost a lot. It appears as though full width chassis is preferred by the majority but it's John's decision to a) let you on the project (£400 + further costs) and b) determine chassis size commitment.

If he goes with full width then it replaces your current DAC and makes it available for use elsewhere (or you can sell it) and if he goes standard size then you replace the internals of your current DAC. The outcome is TBD but expected very soon as he is in China for sake of these negotiations. It's all very exciting, hence the activity.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

Great reply compared to mine, less wine?

Take care

/Lars
 
Sibbers said:
Hey Rob,

-MDAC is the original
-Fusion and Toy versions are levels of modification performed by John to the original MDAC (resistors and caps)
-MDAC2 was created as a way to achieve SQ goals to satisfy the demand for more of what the MDAC could provide, hence this project.

Recent developments have resulted in a need to choose one option for the whole product run. Either the sound quality is king with full size case or stick with the half width original case and reduce SQ potential.

To join, you may be too late, but the idea is a crowd funded pursuit of the development with the benefit of a heavily discounted end product for those helping to fund the initiative.

There aren't any options to upgrade the original MDAC any more as it was very time consuming and wasn't financially viable for John. This was his alternative solution to increase the number of people that can enjoy a reference standard DAC in order to meet his quality goals and there is potential to further the business and lead into more work elsewhere.

You would need to get on the project or wait for the final product which will cost a lot. It appears as though full width chassis is preferred by the majority but it's John's decision to a) let you on the project (£400 + further costs) and b) determine chassis size commitment.

If he goes with full width then it replaces your current DAC and makes it available for use elsewhere (or you can sell it) and if he goes standard size then you replace the internals of your current DAC. The outcome is TBD but expected very soon as he is in China for sake of these negotiations. It's all very exciting, hence the activity.

Hope that helps!

Ps. Lars ain't wrong. If you want on the project you should be patient and not emotionally attached to the money/end product etc. It is possible that what John creates turns out to be the same as every other competent DAC. Worst case it could be even worse. Not sure how people would cope with that. Highly unlikely in my view, the MDAC is great and John gives a lot of confidence but just as with gambling, don't pitch dosh you can't afford to lose for the sake of a hobby unless you're genuinely behind the spirit of the initiative.
Click to expand...

Brilliant summary, Sibbers. The only thing I would add is that a powerful argument for the full width unit (FWC in the thread) is that this probably leads on to a full commercial development which the outside world will be able to buy, but obviously will be more expensive. Rob, since you pick that name, which I like, just be aware that the animals on this Ark are not yet biting one another over this, but there is some growling going on....
 
LarsS said:
@All,

I've sent a private mail to John concerning this. I expect a thorough and detailed answer from him.

Let's give John some time to reflect upon this and come back to all of us.
I'm confident that we'll all be happy in the end.

/and Cheers again (not much wine left now here in sunny, at last, Stockholm)
Lars
Click to expand...

LarsS, although I value your presence as I value every other PFM member, I'm not very impressed with your self importance or your faith in your own skills or intellect... Have you ever been to http://mdac2.lakewestaudio.com/ ??? I read it as if your self declared proficiency as a project manager was not needed then and I hope it is not needed now... I hope you'll be happy. I know I already am.
snip:
-------------------------
Project roadmap

Before presenting the planned project schedule, it is important to stress that any timeframes given are only our best estimates and cannot be relied upon completely. We are undertaking development of the very best DAC possible and that is the primary goal which necessarily takes precedence to meeting any self-inflicted deadlines. After all what good is a DAC delivered on time, but knowingly crippled? That said, let’s look at the milestones and projected timeframes and the related installment payment schedule.
-------------------------
 
Woah, just came back after one month of vacation. What can I say...:

1) I am one of those with a savaged unit :-(
Yes, I went for it because I am on a budget. Now I may end up forced into the most expensive of all options!

2) I would like to also bring up an issue with the British pound being 30-35% more expensive than 2 years ago compared to EUR/SEK/DKK. Those not living in the UK pay far more for those extras to the project.

3) Some people seem to be all-in for the FWC and whatever comes next. I just don't seem to be able to match those people's salaries, sorry. It is not that I would not like it, believe me. I just cannot afford to trash 370 GBP period.

By no means I want JohnW to end up buying my savaged MDAC. No way, it cannot be that him and only him takes the risk. I may even consider saving for some months for the FWC, but only if the savaged unit issue is settled in a good manner for all AND for JohnW.

Also, doing "polls" in July (in July!?!) is far too dangerous. If you want a poll, I think an email to all those who are on the list is the way to go.

I will need to digest this for a while, there must be a solution.
 
Sibbers said:
Hey Rob,

-MDAC is the original
-Fusion and Toy versions are levels of modification performed by John to the original MDAC (resistors and caps)
-MDAC2 was created as a way to achieve SQ goals to satisfy the demand for more of what the MDAC could provide, hence this project.

Recent developments have resulted in a need to choose one option for the whole product run. Either the sound quality is king with full size case or stick with the half width original case and reduce SQ potential.

To join, you may be too late, but the idea is a crowd funded pursuit of the development with the benefit of a heavily discounted end product for those helping to fund the initiative.

There aren't any options to upgrade the original MDAC any more as it was very time consuming and wasn't financially viable for John. This was his alternative solution to increase the number of people that can enjoy a reference standard DAC in order to meet his quality goals and there is potential to further the business and lead into more work elsewhere.

You would need to get on the project or wait for the final product which will cost a lot. It appears as though full width chassis is preferred by the majority but it's John's decision to a) let you on the project (£400 + further costs) and b) determine chassis size commitment.

If he goes with full width then it replaces your current DAC and makes it available for use elsewhere (or you can sell it) and if he goes standard size then you replace the internals of your current DAC. The outcome is TBD but expected very soon as he is in China for sake of these negotiations. It's all very exciting, hence the activity.

Hope that helps!

Ps. Lars ain't wrong. If you want on the project you should be patient and not emotionally attached to the money/end product etc. It is possible that what John creates turns out to be the same as every other competent DAC. Worst case it could be even worse. Not sure how people would cope with that. Highly unlikely in my view, the MDAC is great and John gives a lot of confidence but just as with gambling, don't pitch dosh you can't afford to lose for the sake of a hobby unless you're genuinely behind the spirit of the initiative.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the sovereign versions JohnW did.. I have a sovereign dc+ modified one with a regulated 5 channel psu I built...
 
To say where I am, I have a Toy L3. Lots of the expanded features in the fwc appeal to me. I want the best dac John can design. I don't really mind how long it takes as I have complete belief in John and we will have a great product for a snip eventually. That is how it happened with the Toy upgrades.

We can ask for time lines, contingency plans, milestones and the like. But it's one guy and a lot of unknowns. It'll happen when it happens. Until then put some music on, have a glass of your favourite drink and .... chill! :) Enjoy the journey...
 
Sibbers and all

That's a great reply and finally makes it all lot clearer to me. Many thanks!

I can also see a little of why there is frustration beginning to show. Being a Programme Manager, I know there's little worse than scope creep. But I make no judgement as I've never been involved in a project where requirements don't evolve during its lifetime, irrespective of best intentions. The outcome will be worth waiting for I'm certain.

In the meantime I'm enjoying my MDAC enormously. It's 'settling in' now and I'm starting to hear and feel the thrill that I used to from my best vinyl recordings many years ago. Quite wonderful!

Cheers

Rob
 
Project roadmap

Before presenting the planned project schedule, it is important to stress that any timeframes given are only our best estimates and cannot be relied upon completely. We are undertaking development of the very best DAC possible and that is the primary goal which necessarily takes precedence to meeting any self-inflicted deadlines. After all what good is a DAC delivered on time, but knowingly crippled? That said, let’s look at the milestones and projected timeframes and the related installment payment schedule.

Keywords: Knowingly crippled.

It's also about time John made a profit - the life blood of life itself.
 
JohnW said:
Of topic but relevant to my meeting with the CNC vendor, an interesting article:-

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/171...ude-awakening-at-a-german-manufacturing-fair/
Click to expand...

While I'm in 'parliamentary recess'....I read the above article and found it rather interesting, the comments were scathing too. Seems Chinese manufacturing may be facing a crisis....cheap labour is their only advantage, but advances in western innovation and robotic manufacture may put paid to that too.

I can see why you said a while ago that you would order about 10% excess of the cases/parts you required....I guess the quality control in China is such that you will need to bin about 10% of the delivered product.

The original MDAC I believe is fully manufactured in China....I wonder how good the quality control was on the units produced...(luckily mine was excellent).....I guess it must depend on the company used. From my experience (not with China) the first small order is delivered to high quality but it's the second or larger order that suffers badly....but I guess you are more than fully aware of these issues.

Made in Czech Republic would add kudos and value!
 
"Made in The Czech Republic" today carries the same kudos as "Made in England" until the 1960s and is certainly on a par with "Made in Germany."
 
I am interested in the FWC version. I take it the display+controller chip is no longer needed from the original M-DAC (if the project goes that way)?
 
Noah's Dove said:
Sibbers and all

That's a great reply and finally makes it all lot clearer to me. Many thanks!

In the meantime I'm enjoying my MDAC enormously. It's 'settling in' now and I'm starting to hear and feel the thrill that I used to from my best vinyl recordings many years ago. Quite wonderful!

Cheers

Rob
Click to expand...

Everytime I get an upgrade to my system and I can clearly hear the improvement......I'm like a kid in a candy shop....I dig out all my favourite music and play it all over again looking for those subtle improvements.....I just can't wait to get the LakeWest Fusion Dac....if as hoped it's miles better, then I'll be in musical bliss for months at least and I'll be inflicting my musical tastes on all my friends (I feel sorry for them already)....I've got over 1Tb of music to re-listen to...life may be too short!..bummer.
 
Noah's Dove said:
Good evening all

I'm very new to Pink Fish but have been following this thread with a lot of interest for some time. But, I admit I'm confused about a few things which I hope you can clarify for a newby.

I've recently bought an MDAC and am absolutely thrilled with it. I've no intention of upgrading it any time soon (although I have updated the firmware - I couldn't bear the undimmed front panel). But, can you tell me in very simple terms what the different development options referred to throughout this thread are e.g. Fusion, Toy, MDAC 2 etc?

At some point I think I would be interested in swapping out the PCB for an improved version whilst keeping the casing etc. Is this the MDAC 2? If so, will I be able to do it in the future, or is this a time limited thing to which I have to subscribe now? If it's the latter, what is the financial outlay?

Thanks all and apologies for asking the basic questions.

Regards

Rob
Click to expand...

Try the mcru mdac power supply, its a bona fide upgrade.
 
Elviz said:
I am interested in the FWC version. I take it the display+controller chip is no longer needed from the original M-DAC (if the project goes that way)?
Click to expand...

I would refer you to the excelent summary by Sibbers a page or two back....short answer to your question:....You're right if the project goes one way (FWC) and wrong if it goes the other (HWC).....It's 'squeaky bum' time for the next week or two.
 
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