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MDAC First Listen (part 00101000)

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@ MIKE 9876

your post from 18/12/14

I would really like my MDAC2 to have a lakewest chassis with internal power supply instead of the audiolab donor chassis one day.

Most of us have bought new MDAC's and thus have more to loose than you, and no we are not all so well off that costs don't matter.
 
Sibbers

I am fully prepared accept a loss on selling the mdac unit I bought for the project but I am not prepared to cover other peoples losses on salvage units. JW offered them salvage units and they bought them, that has nothing to do with anybody who is part of this project who didn't buy a salvage unit. The people who bought salvage units the problem is between them and JW and nobody else. It is their loss and not mine.
 
No matter what, certain % number of people are going to be unhappy. Logic dictates we should be fair to the majority.

I think once we have all the facts (spec, cost, time frame) we should put this to a vote.

If majority decision end up costing the minority money then they should be compensated. I, for one, am happy to contribute.

A vote implies a democratic solution, but if 'logic' already 'dictates' the outcome, are we not faced with a tyranny of the majority?
 
@ MIKE 9876

your post from 18/12/14

I would really like my MDAC2 to have a lakewest chassis with internal power supply instead of the audiolab donor chassis one day.

Most of us have bought new MDAC's and thus have more to loose than you, and no we are not all so well off that costs don't matter.

I did say that but it was envisaged to be at least 2 years after the mdac2 was finished. John did say there wouldn't be a FSC for the mdac2 project until some time in the future and the reason why I said one day.

But my problem is with covering the loss of people who bought salvage units. That was their decision and not mine. I looked at the salvage option and took a different route and spent my money on a working unit. If it was ever suggested that if something changed some members of the project could end up covering the loss of other members who would of signed up.
 
Sibbers

I am not prepared to cover other peoples losses on salvage units. QUOTE]



Fine pay the £ 100 development cost instead, after all its for what you asked for.


Tell my why the people who bought salvage units should have no loss at all when people who bought donor units or new units will have a loss. I will have my loss and their loss and that doesn't seem very fair if they will get every penny back and lose nothing.
 
Can anybody tell if it is fair that people who bought salvage units should get every penny back but members who did not buy salvage units are nursing the losses.
 
Can anybody tell if it is fair that people who bought salvage units should get every penny back but members who did not buy salvage units are nursing the losses.

Yes it is not 100% fair, but the alternative of delaying the project or not getting the FWC is worse.
 
On catching up more on the thread it seems I am being asked to contribute to the cost of salvage units when I spent £400 buying a donor unit. I am going to be hit by a double whammy on this. If we are going to a FWC I will sell the unit I bought at a loss as I can see so many second hand units hitting the market...

A project involving a maximum of 200 people, only a handful of whom would be selling fully functioning M-Dacs, will have diddly squat influence on the current price of used M-Dacs. Looking at completed auctions on eBay M-Dacs seem to go for around £300 to just over £400.
 
Yes it is not 100% fair, but the alternative of delaying the project or not getting the FWC is worse.

That's right it's not 100% fair and the reason why I will refuse to pay their loss. They decided to buy a shell for £370 and if they can't sell it it's nothing to do with me. I didn't force anybody to buy the shells and when they bought the shell it was not my business and now the move to FSC comes along I don't see why I should pay for their mistakes, what they do with the shells is still not my business.
 
Can anybody tell if it is fair that people who bought salvage units should get every penny back but members who did not buy salvage units are nursing the losses.

Everyone would be contributing including the people who bought salvage unit.
Is it fair? I have to say probably no, but I believe it is necessary to allow John to give us ALL the best DAC system he can.

Also, if I am not mistaken, he did offer to allow split payment for people who require it.
 
A vote implies a democratic solution, but if 'logic' already 'dictates' the outcome, are we not faced with a tyranny of the majority?
We are talking about money and audio equipment in which case majority decision should carry as long as minority is adequately compensated.

If we were talking about social behavior or ideological beliefs then 'majority tyranny' wold be relevant.
 
You are assuming that the people who hose to leave would not be replaced by new enrolees.

I am very confident once the spec of John's Fusion DAC is better known people would be queuing up to join. Considering John already has interest for larger production from others also speaks to this.

What you have said is an important factor. I am not yet part of the project, but am thinking about joining. I have mailed somebody who has a Toy/Fusion and wants out, but have not yet heard back. I did exchange some PMs with the chap about a month ago, but his M-Dac might have gone in the interim. I have no idea, however, whether there is a FWC option for an existing Toy/Fusion, or whether it's bound to the half-width case.

Jack
 
Everyone would be contributing including the people who bought salvage unit.
Is it fair? I have to say probably no, but I believe it is necessary to allow John to give us ALL the best DAC system he can.

Also, if I am not mistaken, he did offer to allow split payment for people who require it.

I will compromise but I am not paying anything like £63 or £100, they are going to have to take at least a 50% hit.
 
We are talking about money and audio equipment in which case majority decision should carry as long as minority is adequately compensated.

If we were talking about social behavior or ideological beliefs then 'majority tyranny' wold be relevant.


It's conceptually the same. This is a crowd sourced project so is therefore a form of social behaviour driven by ideological desire for improved sq :)

If logic already dictates the outcome why vote at all.
 
I think that Mike does have a point, but realistically there are differences between those like him who purchased a working MDAC and those who purchased a non functioning unit.

So lets break this down by me making a load of potentially very dodgy assumptions;

  • Mike paid £400 for his MDAC, so it’s in likely in excellent condition and he looked after it, so its still in the same condition.
  • He can sell it for around £330-£370 leaving him out of pocket £30-£70 excluding postage and ebay fees - I have no idea what they’d come to - i’ll assume £20-£30
  • So in total potentially out of pocket £50-£100.
  • If he lives in a large city, maybe go for pick up only and save on postage…
  • He’s used it for x months and can continue to do so until MDAC2 (narrow or FWC) arrives.
  • Actual use gives £5 per month benefit.
  • Assume it’s a total of 12 months use, including up to today + rest of waiting for MDAC2 = £60

So worst case (with all of my potentially dodgy assumptions) he’d recover £300 of the initial £400 outlay, but have also had 12 months of use = £60 so a total £40 out of pocket worst case?

I don’t know if thats reasonable, but please take it in the spirit of putting some context and (assumptive) facts around what could become quite an emotional topic.

It’s probably worth remembering that there’ll be others in Mikes position so I think consideration should be given to this scenario.

I'm done for the night- just enough alcohols been consumed for me to go out like the proverbial log!
 
They had the choice to buy a working DAC, they chose to cheap out. I don't particularly want the full width case but I have to suck the cost up if i want to continue with the project. I'm sorry the goalposts moved for them, they moved for all of us.
 
The original idea was to charge GBP100 development fee for the FWC, so considering the few who are upset about the salvaged MDAC issue - I'll just charge this GBP100 and its then upto me what I do with the funds - I can then repurchase the non working salvaged units back - and have funds spare.

Concerning the argument about those who have purchased an MDAC privately for the MDAC2 upgrade, presumably these units are working and can be sold for GBP300 the expected cost of the FWC?

Hopefully I'll not be "forced" into charging a GBP100 development fee which would increase the FWC to GBP340 just because a few are upset about the notion of me repurchasing non working salvaged units?

Please consider that by charging the original GBP100 development fee I'd have an extra GBP7000 sitting in an account!

Guys, in essences I'm forgoing GBP7000 to try an make this happen, what more can I do?

I'm not interested in profiting from this situation, but just to be able to release the best DAC I can and not be forced into crippling the design in the final stages of the project.

Lets face it, an official "Factory built" Fusion DAC's in a nice chassis, HQ PSU and with touch screen, tested by myself has to be worth more then a DIY upgraded MDAC?

If the goal post are moved, then its to IMPROVE the product - just imagine how you would feel if your purchased your MDAC2, then a few months later an "Upgraded" nicer built unit appeared - personally I'd be so upset! Then once we start releasing software for the IPS touch panel units only, then it would only get worst!

As I now know the ultimate goal is a product based on the FWC, why make a two class system and upset every loyal PFM MDAC2 owner? Its been the support of everyone here that has made this project possible - I'm not going to burn this bridged.

I could have kept quite, said nothing and made my life easy - but THATS not what I'm about. I UNDERSTAND the feelings, but upon consideration this is the least "Evil" - but its like being caught between a rock and a hard place.

IF we go the FWC route then I genially believe that this is the correct decision.
 
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